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  1. #41
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    I thought we would see the customary "thugged boot tromping" comments. But the duct tape and guards are new. New extremisms. Nice......

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BjornBee View Post
    ,,,His policy is that beekeepers be notified. But he also tells his inspectors that once a card has been mailed, once multiple phone calls are made, and once no response is received by the beekeeper (which does happen, with sometimes open opposition)....he has no problem telling an inspector to pop in and do the inspection. He may of "suggested" something different to you on the phone.
    Hi Mike,

    NO, he did not suggest something different to me on the phone.

    Dennis has told me in person that he believes in openness and I have great trust that he is doing just that.

    In fact, what you said is exactly what he suggested to me in our discussio. I mentioned to him that I believed that an inspector should make an honest effort to contact the beekeeper beforhand, after that, go ahead with your duties.
    And he thought that was a vary workable solution that would NOT hinder an inspectors duties.

    So I guess I do win the dabate, as inspectors in PA must make an honest attempt at prior notice.

    PS. I apologize for the less than generous use of smiley faces in my last post. It appears Barry placed a limit of 4 per post!

    I'm oputraged. I don’t think we can tolerate a limitation of smiley faces and what to get support to have the BAN lifted.

    I’m going over to tailgater and confront Barry about this.
    Get your torches and pitchforks and follow me.

    Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
    ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
    FeralBeeProject.com

  3. #43
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    While we are on this subject what role do inspectors really play? What ills have they really saved us from? They burned a lot of hives with AFB but we still have it. Is the burning of so many hives really to thank for the situation we have now or was it the natural progression of a parasite host relationship that played out? If not then why less occurrence of AFB now compared to then? What if we burned all hives with varroa? Would we have less varroa in 20 years? We have more viruses, pathogens, and pests then we have ever had. All the states have different programs with different rules and opinions on how the inspection program should be run. Some states have no program. I personally think having an inspection program that checks for viruses, pathogens, and pests is borderline useless. I do however think it wise to have someone check that pesticides and cleanliness standards are enforced. If you think the inspection programs of certain states are really important please tell me how. If what you say makes sense you might convert a believer but from what I have seen nothing really worthwhile has come of them.
    \"The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns something that will always be useful and which never will grow dim or doubtful.\" - Mark Twain

  4. #44
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    what role do they play? I agree, we still have all the ills we had before the inspections...just another "i'm from the government, and I'm here to help" load of B.S. If my inspectors help as much as FEMA, then I guess I'll be ok.

  5. #45
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    well, in our county, we've had 2 cases of afb all year. everyone with hives in the vicinity has been notified (so as to keep a careful watch). the infection near my hives would have festered and been neglected without treatment if not for the inspection. with 4 honey supers on this hive, there would be plenty to rob from a deadout...likely infecting a number of hives nearby (including mine).

    in addition, we get good reports at meetings of what the inspector is seeing around the county in general (mite levels, stores, etc). to me this is all more than worthwhile...and largely dependant on the individual inspector more than the program or the local laws.

    deknow

  6. #46
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    As inefficient as the inspection program may be, I cringe when I imagine what it would be like without it. There are many responsible beekeepers out there, but how long would it stay that way in an atmosphere with absolutely no checks or personal accountability? Especially if one is having a serious problem and faces significant financial loss.

    How comfortable would you be eating at a restaurant that you knew NEVER had any inspections. Do you trust the management and staff to always do the right thing... even when no one is watching? I don't.
    To everything there is a season....

  7. #47
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    [
    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    While we are on this subject what role do inspectors really play? What ills have they really saved us from?
    Here in PA, AFB had been a problem since late 1800’s and PA experienced an epidemic of AFB in the early 1900’s which prompted the adoption of the bee law in 1911 and another in 1921, which provided for right of entry.

    The reason for the bee law was at that time epidemics of AFB infected about 50% of the bee colonies in the state. During the time after the bee law was adopted, the cases of AFB dropped to an average of about 1 to 3 percent for the past 40 years or so.

    In the late 1800‘s and early 1900‘s beekeeping practices were not well in the USA. And visiting beekeepers from Europe were known to be astounded by the primitive beekeeping methods being used in the USA, keeping bees in Gums and high incidence of disease, (Source: Eva Crane, World History of Beekeeping and Honey Hunting)

    There is a propensity to give the inspection program sole credit for this reduction in AFB cases. BUT we must remember that during the time, laws were passed that prohibited the keeping of bees in Gums, which was how bees were kept in PA other eastern states such as North Carolina where upright log hives of black gum (Nyssa sylvatica) were still being used as late as 1958 (Source: Eva Crane, World History of Beekeeping and Honey Hunting, PG. 305). So the laws to keep bees in movable frames likely had a much greater impact on the reduction of AFB than folks like to admit.


    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    They burned a lot of hives with AFB but we still have it. Is the burning of so many hives really to thank for the situation we have now or was it the natural progression of a parasite host relationship that played out? If not then why less occurrence of AFB now compared to then?
    Because of movable frames, and to some extent the inspection program.


    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    What if we burned all hives with varroa? Would we have less varroa in 20 years? We have more viruses, pathogens, and pests then we have ever had.
    You can breed your way out of these things, AFB, Virus and Varroa! Talking over a hive during one inspection, PA State Apiarist Dennis vanEngelsdorp explained how to select for AFB resistance, and greatly encourages the practice, which was in a nutshell, get rid of any genetics that show even a trace of AFB infection.


    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    If you think the inspection programs of certain states are really important please tell me how. If what you say makes sense you might convert a believer but from what I have seen nothing really worthwhile has come of them.

    IMO, they can be a valuable asset.

    From my experience,,,

    When seeing mite levels high, inspectors will say ‘treat them’.

    When seeing AFB, in most cases the suggestion again is ‘treat them’

    This propagates susceptible stock.

    When the advice given is get rid of the susceptible stock. Then you will begin to see great value added to the inspection program by the promotion of resistant stock, and not measures that lead us into eventual trouble with poor genetics.


    Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
    ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
    FeralBeeProject.com

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    As inefficient as the inspection program may be, I cringe when I imagine what it would be like without it.
    Hello Mike,

    Here in PA inspection of a colony is done every 2 years. That’s 2 minutes per colony per 2 years. I don’t think it will be missed if it were eliminated. IMO, beekeepers that rely on an inspection every 2 years to tell them they have AFB could use some education.

    The problem is that here in the USA we do a poor job of teaching beekeepers to inspect colonies and identify disease and pests. In parts of Europe all there is are the bee groups, and they do a great job in facilitating and atmosphere of teaching self reliance in beekeepers. Here in the USA it seems most bee groups are weak in this area and we tend to rely on government to teach which frankly does a poor job in anything they do.


    Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
    ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
    FeralBeeProject.com

  9. #49
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    Joe makes an interesting point. At work the next day, I mentioned the inspection and had a couple of people commented that I must feel "relieved" to know how my hives were doing. I found it telling that the general impression was so expectant of some authority to inform you about something. I think that there is a large class of people that rely on nutritional labels, laws, regulations, mandates, statutes, etc., to guide their opinions. One woman even thought that taking a beekeeping class should be mandatory so that I could get "registered". Mind you, this is Massachusetts and sometimes the level of support for public meddling in private affairs is stunning.

    To Joe's point, it seems that many people I've talked with (non-beekeepers) discount the bee classes I've taken or even the incredible exchange of information found here and lean towards feeling warm and cozy with something more "authoritative". Hence, the artificial reliance on government.

    From my point of view, all good knowledge is useful and I don't care all that much where it came from. (I do, of course, assign a premium value to the information gleaned from all of you )!
    "My wife always wanted girls. Just not thousands and thousands of them......"

  10. #50
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    Back in the early 1900's when most state inspection ptograms came into being, afb was common with most estimates surpassing 50%. As the agriculture importance of pollination and migratory practices of bees were being recognized, and the bee industry itself was demanding help, the inspection programs came into being.

    In the early 1900's, mail ordering bees was not common. If you needed a frame of eggs for an emergency queen or lost your colonies, you borrowed from the next farm over as almost every farm had bees. This made desease spread likely. Much of the education to isolated and individual beekeepers were from inspectors.

    As the industry developed into what it is today, the inspection program also has developed with the times. State programs provide education, inspection programs, assistance with university programs, a place to call for ordinance problems, and a host of other benefits.

    Today, the bees "industry" has little to do with some beekeeepr with two hives in the back yard. The industry, including state inspection programs, are there to facilitate the demand of pollination to the food industry. To protect a vital component of the national security issue of food.

    But along with that, the inspection programs are involved with the future problem and public relations concerming the spread of AHB's. Don't you think the spread of AHB's or lack of mass spread through packages and hives crossing state lines were ay least diminished with state regulations and the inspection program?

    Who do you think Dave Hackenburg and other commercial beekeepers turned to when CCD first reared its head? How many state inspection programs have personnel on the front lines trying to help each and every one of us? Much of the research from universities and bee labs across this country are helped tremendously by state inspection programs and the sacrifices of inspectors within the programs. I personally donated the use of 50 hives mtself when I was inspecting for the use of experiments. That same year, several other inspectors I knew did the same. Not out of guilt, not out of pressure. But becuase those others, along with myself saw the need and importance in what was going on behind the scenes. And what goes on is a whole lot more than diminsihing the inspection programs to little more than afb checks and two minute visits.

    I am dissappointed that its mentioned "they should do this, or they should do that", when so few actually even recognize the benefits and true impact of the inspection programs, and what they already contribute.
    Last edited by BjornBee; 08-21-2007 at 06:40 AM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FordGuy View Post
    what role do they play? I agree, we still have all the ills we had before the inspections...just another "i'm from the government, and I'm here to help" load of B.S. If my inspectors help as much as FEMA, then I guess I'll be ok.
    From what I understand most State Apiary Inspection programs were established because of the epidemic occurances of AFB and other honeybee diseases. Once you get a program going it's easier to keep it going than it is to start it up again when it is truely needed.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    From what I understand most State Apiary Inspection programs were established because of the epidemic occurances of AFB and other honeybee diseases. Once you get a program going it's easier to keep it going than it is to start it up again when it is truely needed.

    Yeah that’s a great idea!! Let’s keep as many government programs going as we can in case we MIGHT need them in the future. So are you saying it is not truly needed?
    \"The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns something that will always be useful and which never will grow dim or doubtful.\" - Mark Twain

  13. #53
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    Chief,
    Read my last post on page 5, it deals a little deeper than the afb issue.

  14. #54
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    I almost hate to join in on this issue, but I have an opinion, too. Just like everybody else.

    When I was an inspector, in Imperial Valley, Calif. in the 80's, AFB was the only reason for our existence. There was no hint of any purpose like educating the public or beekeepers, public relations, or any other balogna - just AFB control. We had beekeepers who did pollination there, but our main task was to make sure AFB didn't spread during the winter months when migratory beekeepers would drop hives along the roads in the desert, above the canals, on public land (BLM mostly) and leave them there to maintain their populations on the brush that bloomed during the winter and early spring. From the bees' perspective, it was a marginal living condition, but from the beekeepers' it was a great way to avoid a winter decline.

    The problem was that bees would get dropped off out there and the owners would go home for a couple of months of break in the hard work of beekeeping. When AFB broke out, a colony could, and did, spread the disease far and wide before the owners came back and inspected their bees.

    Under those conditions, we didn't worry in the least about appointments or property rights. We drove around the back roads looking for hives and when we found them we took a look. Most were fine and they weren't the ones we were there for. We left them as close to the condition as we'd found them as we could manage. The ones we worried about were the ones that were in decline with AFB. It was frustrating to try to contact owners living as far away as the Central states and currently on vacation. We red-tagged the hives and gave them a week to respond. We made phone calls. We mailed postcards. Seldom did any of that do a bit of good. So we had two choices. Let them sit there and continue to contaminate the good hives sharing that public land, or burn them.

    Personally, I enjoyed watching the flames. It is amazing how well they burn. But I took it a step farther than the other inspectors. When we found a yard with AFB, I called as many of the local beekeepers as I had cards for and let them know the locations of the problem hives. My intention was that they would know where to avoid, but I noticed that not all the piles of ashes were started by us.

    As far as I was concerned, it was those phone calls to other beekeepers that justified my salary as an inspector.
    "Before I speak, I have something I'd like to say. . . . I will try to keep this short as long as I can." Yogi Berra

  15. #55
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    "I almost hate to join this issue, but I have an opinion, too. Just like everybody else". TX Ashurst.
    Yup! That's me also, [Oldbee] It's good to hear from present/former "inspectors".

    "While we are on this subject, what role do inspectors really play? What ills have they really saved us from?" Chief: Well,...............I don't know if that is the "ROLE" that inspectors need to play; to "save" beekeepers from "ills". If they can provide documentation and statistical information that can be used [later, at some time] by beekeepers/entomolgists/scientists. WHY NOT???

    I have only three hives [and don't know nothin bout beekeep'n] but was "honored" that the "state" inspector took the time to come out and just see what was going on with the hives.
    I made a comment earlier on this thread but didn't expect it to become a 6 page "document".

  16. #56
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    I'm surprised by the length of the document as well.

    Oldbee, I felt kind of honored by the inspector coming out as well. There's surely lots of other hives, owned by beeks that sell nucs or honey. I do neither so the visit was different for me. Maybe it's because it was my first time but I'm glad he stopped by. Ideally, I would have known in advance but work is an hour away and I can't take a half day just for an inspection that can happen without me.
    "My wife always wanted girls. Just not thousands and thousands of them......"

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    I would be more than a little upset with an Inspector Visit coming onto my property and inspecting my hives without my approval. I may not want him messing with my experiments or using his contaminated equipment and tools in my hives. Man I would be angry!! We used to have one inspector for the whole state but for some reason they got rid of the position. Pretty soon “they” will be coming in your house unannounced to make sure you made your bed or something!






    The Inspector has a right to go out there any time he want to! if he wanted to go out to look at the hives at 2 am he can theres nothing you can do about it he is just doing his job and im not trying to start a fight or any thing. But I Inspector was just going to say he can go out there when ever he wants to. When you Registerd your hive you just gave the Inspector the right to come out. any ways Im not trying to be a butt or any thing.
    Last edited by Carson; 08-22-2007 at 11:41 PM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    Yeah that’s a great idea!! Let’s keep as many government programs going as we can in case we MIGHT need them in the future. So are you saying it is not truly needed?
    Apiary Inspection Programs are hard to justify, as I'm suer you know. I think that they are as important as the beekeeping industry is. On the other hand, what would be the result of not having Apiary Inspection Programs?

    I inspected apiaries for the State of New York for 20 years. I haven't heard from or seen an Apiary Inspector for the last 2 years. I haven't felt the need of inspection of my own hives. The State knows where they are if they want to check them out. With me present of course.

    I would like some one to check out the hives that were described to me, by the father of the beekeeper, as acting Africanized.

    Yesterdays Inspectors were charged w/ getting rid of AFB and other diseases that werew desimatting the industry. That has pretty much been brought under control w/ AFB rates of less than 4% here in NY.

    Todays Inspectors need to be educators, in my opinion. Control of diseases and pests of honeybees is still the mandate. But since we've pretty much got them at levels we can live with, the Inspectors focus should be on educating beekeepers on how to get along w/ or "control" todays pests and diseases (disorders?).
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  19. #59
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    [QUOTE=BjornBee;257812]

    ordinance problems,


    I personally donated the use of 50 hives mtself when I was inspecting for the use of experiments. That same year, several other inspectors I knew did the same. Not out of guilt, not out of pressure. QUOTE]

    Ordinance problems? Please explain. Thanks.

    I would think that donating the use of 50 hives to your employer would constitute a conflict of interest. Apparently PA disagrees? It's too bad that NY isn't as enlightened as PA or I would still be working as an Inspector.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX Ashurst View Post
    But I took it a step farther than the other inspectors. When we found a yard with AFB, I called as many of the local beekeepers as I had cards for and let them know the locations of the problem hives. My intention was that they would know where to avoid, but I noticed that not all the piles of ashes were started by us.

    As far as I was concerned, it was those phone calls to other beekeepers that justified my salary as an inspector.
    Did you continue this practice after you "noticed that not all the piles were stared by us"? The reaction of the other beekeepers is a good reason why Apiary Inspection data should be and is kept confidential.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

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