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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerkeyDavid View Post
    In Ohio the inspectors do not have any duty to inform you in advance, nor is there any place on the form to ask to be notified.

    When these discussions about inspectors occur they always some that Interpret the discussion WRONG come to the defense. But keep in mind I support the inspection program and love my beekeeping brethren local inspector.

    My point is strictly concerning >>>>how the laws are written.<<<<

    Ohio has had beekeeper / trespassing complaints due to the warrant-less search law also:

    In the April 1987 issue of the American Bee Journal, page 245-246, a federal appeals court has overturned an Ohio law that lets state inspectors examine beekeepers' hives without search warrants.

    In a 2-1 decision, a three-judge panel of the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the Ohio Department of Agriculture's beehive inspection program is unconstitutional.

    State agriculture officials argued that they need warrantless searches to maintain the element of surprise in inspections that single out diseased hives that could infect and destroy other bee populations.

    State law allows the inspections without prior notice, without a warrant and outside the presence of the owners. The inspectors may burn hives and bee populations that are determined by laboratory tests to be diseased. Beekeepers are allowed five days to appeal such findings by the state before the hives are burned.

    The appeals court's ruling sends the case back to U.S. District Court for further consideration. For its ruling, the appeals court consolidated two separate cases filed by beekeepers William and Caroline Allinder, of Gibsonburg, and Elmer and Marilyn Steiner, of Van Buren. They maintain beehives in Sandusky, Seneca, Wood, Putnam and Hardin counties.

    The beekeepers contended that the warrantless searches violated the fourth amendment protection against unreasonable searches.

    A majority of the three-judge panel rules that the warrantless searches allow the inspectors too much discretion. The majority noted that because of the degree of technical knowledge needed to make inspections, inspectors are often competitors of those they inspect and may sometimes have the responsibility to inspect their own apiaries.

    I am not aware of the results from later appeals.

    Best Wishes,

    Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
    ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
    FeralBeeProject.com

  2. #22
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    OHIO REVISED CODE
    CHAPTER 909. APIARY LAW

    Section 909.05 Apiary entry; inspection purposes; search warrant.

    To enforce sections 909.01 to 909.18 of the Revised Code, the director of agriculture or his authorized representatives, during daylight hours, shall have access to and egress from any apiary or to any premises, buildings, or any other place, public or private, in which he has reason to believe that bees, including Africanized honey bees, honey, wax, used hives, or used equipment is kept. During the inspection, the director or his representative may inspect bee colonies to determine their condition and health, take samples for disease diagnosis or race determination, decide if live colonies exist for apiary registration purposes, and control or eradicate serious bee diseases and Africanized honey bees.

    If the director or his representative is denied access to any premises where access is sought for the purposes of this section, he may apply to any court of competent jurisdiction for a search warrant authorizing access to the premises for those purposes. The court, upon receiving the application, may issue the search warrant for the purposes requested.
    To everything there is a season....

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenseye View Post
    Got a call from my wife today while I was at work. She had gone home for lunch and found the inspector in the yard. He had just got there and apologized for not calling ahead but popped the tops off the hives and took a peek. My wife called me while he was looking at things and he was good enough to chat with me on the phone when he was done (I feel bad...he got a bee in his veil and got nailed!).

    Told me that the hives looked in good shape with lots of healthy brood and a few mites as well . He was also very interested in the location of any local classes that had been held in the area because he wanted to touch base with mentors or teachers. I asked how other hives were doing and he said that he was seeing less mite related issues this year compared to last year although he thought that the honey stores were a little light compared to what he thought he would be seeing at this point.

    I haven't seen it yet but he supposedly left a report on his visit. He commended me on the overall condition of the hives and commented that it was obvious that they were being attended to.

    I felt pretty good about this surprise visit. I only wish I had been there so I could have asked a bunch of questions...like I do on these boards.

    Just thought I'd share!

    what the holy hell? some guy is on YOUR property popping lids off your hives? unannounced? uninvited? I'd be the one popping a top

  4. #24
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    Keep in mind that, last year, I knowingly registered with the state, understanding that they would have the right to view my hives.
    "My wife always wanted girls. Just not thousands and thousands of them......"

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    OHIO REVISED CODE
    CHAPTER 909. APIARY LAW

    If the director or his representative is denied access to any premises where access is sought for the purposes of this section, he may apply to any court of competent jurisdiction for a search warrant authorizing access to the premises for those purposes. The court, upon receiving the application, may issue the search warrant for the purposes requested.
    So there is an OPTION for the homeowner to refuse access!
    That’s great!!! Way to go OHIO!
    Now we need to get PA protecting our rights also.

    The fourth amendment up held!

    Glad to see Fordguy also standing up for the fourth amendment!

    Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
    ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
    FeralBeeProject.com

  6. #26
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    There has been some change in Ohio since the case cited above. When you register your hives you can check a box that says you do not want your hives inspected.\

  7. #27
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    I had a really fun experience with the bee inspector in Minnesota a couple of years ago. Brought 24 hives up from Florida, called the woman in charge of the apiary division of the Dept of Ag ahead of time to inquire about a permit, etc. She never got it together to issue a permit, but while we were in Fl the bee inspector left a message asking us to call to arrange for an inspection when we arrived back in Mn. We did so and set a time for the inspection. The guy never showed up, did not call to cancel the appointment, but then showed up unannounced later in the week. We had a few SHB in the hives, which we knew about and had discussed with the Fl bee inspector before leaving Fl. The Mn inspector flipped out- told us there had never been SHB in MN (a lie- and this was documented on the internet), went to the local commercial beekeepers and told them we had brought a plague of SHB which were going to put everyone out of business (not his exact words, but to that effect). We hadn't even met the local beekeepers yet as I was new to the state at the time. I had had years of experience with SHB in Fl and knew that they would not establish here- we have really sandy soil, cold winters, etc. (The state extension apiarist later voiced the same opinion and wondered what all the fuss was about). It was just a matter of pulling the honey and treating the hives, no big deal.

    We wound up buying some empty barrels from one of the local commercial guys as we had 82 supers of honey to extract and nothing to put it in. The guy filled us in on what the inspector had told him and the others guys, and told us how the inspector got them all wound up about it. We were livid, contacted our attorney, who then wrote a cease and desist letter to the Dept of Ag. Included in the letter was a request that in the future the inspector notify us within 24 hours in advance of any visits, as was provided for in the state statutes. Our concern was not that we had anything to hide, but rather that we had 2 large dogs who, although not aggressive, would tear our house apart whenever someone drove in the driveway (next to the house), if we were not at home. We explained that to the inspector but the guy was not interested- he continued to show up without giving proper notice even after we had asked him not to.

    He came once to check that we had started treatments, no problem there. But, a week later he came and brought along a colleague from the Pesticide enforcement div and issued an embargo against the sale of any honey from our hives. He claimed that we were in violation of the pesticide label laws- reason? Because after pulling 84 supers we discovered that one medium box had brood in it, and one of the brood boxes was an odd size (3/4 deep). We wanted to get rid of the brood and so we put the two boxes back on the hives above queen excluders. Now, it seemed to me that upon inspection it would have been pretty obvious to any beekeeper what my intentions were. But, just in case it wasn't, and knowing that the pesticide guy was not a beekeeper, I went to great lengths to explain exactly what I was doing with the boxes. I explained that I intended to get rid of the old, black wax in the boxes after the brood had finished hatching. I explained about the odd sized box and that I wanted it out of my inventory. I explained that it was still early in the spring and that there was no honey flow on yet, etc etc etc. All to no avail. They served the embargo and left.

    We tried repeatedly to get in contact with the higher ups in the dept, but no one would even talk to us about it. All they would say was that "we get our information from the bee inspector". Well, what do you do when the bee inspector is a liar? And incompetent to boot? This guy went through my hives and put boxes on backwards, left frames crooked and improperly spaced in the boxes, and made a real mess. I was really tweaked because I had put on new boxes with new foundation and was trying to transition from single deeps to triples for the winter and I wanted the wax drawn properly.

    The biggest joke of all was this- they placed an embargo against the sale of honey from the hives- what honey? Every hive had 2 deeps of new frames to draw and fill before winter- we never had a surplus! And I explained that to the bee inspector as well, but of course, he wasn't interested in facts. He kept insisting that any box above the QE HAD to be a honey super and therefore we were in violation. What a moron. When I think of the waste of taxpayer dollars that went into that little charade it makes my blood just boil!

    So, although I have always been in favor of bee inspections, and think they serve a valuable and necessary service, I went to that year's state beekeepers convention and argued against continuing the inspection program (there was already a discussion in the works about discontinuing it). I did not, and still do not think that we need to have an incompetent bungler running around inventing violations where they have not occurred. Now, if the state wanted to hire a professional who was honest and knew what he was doing I'd be all for it, but the way the program was being run at the time was a waste, and worse than useless.

    Ultimately the mandatory inspection program was discontinued, though inspections are available for the migratory beekeepers who request them. But, the Commissioner of Agriculture (and his agents) have the right to enter any private property at any time if they say they even suspect that you might have bees- they have very broad powers issued in the intereste of "public safety". Apparently they can make up whatever story they want in order to justify their actions- even if we had no bees they could still come onto the property looking for them. I would not have a problem with that if they were acting in good faith, but since both the apiary inspector and the pesticide guy lied to us, we don't have a lot of confidence in them.

    In my case, the embargo was lifted after I wrote to Keith Delaplane, Jerry Hayes, Bayer Pharmacueticals, and the Beltsville Bee Lab with a detailed description of what I was doing, and why. I received written communiques from each of them confirming that my management was exactly correct. I then forwarded those letters, along with photocopies of pages from Marla Spivak's beekeepng text (well, the one she uses in her short course at the U of M), and photos of our apiary taken on the day of the inspection, and sent all of that to 4 different department heads within the Minn Dept of Ag. A few days later they lifted the embargo. Later that year the apiary inspection program was discontinued (not because of this incident, but due to other factors, mostly) and I have not heard from them since. But, I have done a lot of legal groundwork just in case they ever decide to hassle us again. I'm not too concerned about the possibility, but that whole incident left me with a few lingering questions- namely, who protects the innocent when government officials run amok?
    Last edited by EKW; 08-19-2007 at 09:02 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerkeyDavid View Post
    There has been some change in Ohio since the case cited above. When you register your hives you can check a box that says you do not want your hives inspected.\
    This is true. But I wonder if it may heighten suspicion within the inspection community? And if complaints are received about the purity of this beekeepers honey products or the suspected ill-health of their colonies, then the Dept of Ag has the option to secure a search warrant and inspect any or all parts of an operation.

    Ohio has eased up quite a bit.... but if you happen to become a target, for whatever reason, there's no stopping them. It's a very delicate balancing act protecting individual rights and also protecting the public from one who may be practicing unethical techniques that have the potential to inflict harm on others, physically or financially.

    I'm satisfied that Ohio has found a good middle ground stance and if decent people are managing the system then it's a plus for everyone.
    To everything there is a season....

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    This is true. But I wonder if it may heighten suspicion within the inspection community?
    Hello Mike,

    I don’t think it does.
    I confronted State Apiarist Dennis Van,,, himself on several occasions concerning the access laws and other items. Dennis is very understanding and has personally inspected my colonies when asked. I see no increased suspicion or retribution at all from any inspector, just consideration for my concerns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    And if complaints are received about the purity of this beekeepers honey products or the suspected ill-health of their colonies, then the Dept of Ag has the option to secure a search warrant and inspect any or all parts of an operation.
    I think that would be an DOA issue.
    The apiary inspection program is ONLY concerned by law about enforcement of AFB prevention as far as I am aware. There likely will be upcoming laws concerning AHB to be included in the inspection program, but to my knowledge the apiary inspection program has no authority to make you treat for mites or inspect your packing areas.


    Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
    ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
    FeralBeeProject.com

  10. #30
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    The Ohio case that got things stirred up there happened about 20 some years ago when a County Apiary Inspector went onto private property, inspected some beehives, found AFB and burned the bees and equipment w/out communicating w/ the beekeeper. What a dope.

    Criminal trespassing and destruction of property sure don't make for good relations between citizens and government officials.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturebee View Post
    I think that would be an DOA issue.
    The apiary inspection program is ONLY concerned by law about enforcement of AFB prevention as far as I am aware.
    Since the Apiary Division falls under the jurisdiction and is an extension of the DOA in Ohio I would consider them one and the same. The DOA is regulating the entire process, from the apiary to consumer sales.

    The following is taken from CHAPTER 909: APIARIES

    "909.03 Control, eradication or prevention of bee diseases or spread of Africanized honey bees.
    The director of agriculture may make and enforce such rules and orders as in his judgment are necessary to control, eradicate, or prevent the introduction, spread, or dissemination of any bee diseases or Africanized honey bees. No person shall fail to comply with the rules adopted under this section.

    In the control or eradication of serious bee diseases, the director or his authorized representative shall diagnose the disease and recommend approved control options for it to the beekeeper. If a control is available to the beekeeper for the disease diagnosed but no attempt is made to implement a control within an appropriate time frame as determined by rule, the director may destroy by burning or otherwise any diseased bees, hives, honey, Africanized honey bees, or equipment that he considers necessary for such control or eradication, without remuneration to the owner. Such diseased bees, hives, honey, Africanized honey bees, and equipment are a public nuisance."



    Quote Originally Posted by naturebee View Post
    but to my knowledge the apiary inspection program has no authority to make you treat for mites or inspect your packing areas.
    Chapter 3715
    Ohio Food, Drug, Cosmetic and Device Law

    3715.03 Right of Entry to Make Inspection

    The director of agriculture, in performing duties under this chapter, may enter a creamery, factory, store salesroom, pharmacy, laboratory, or other place where the director believes or has reason to believe drugs, food or drink is made, prepared, dispensed, sold, or offered for sale; to examine the books therein; and open a cask, tub, jar, bottle, or other package containing or supposed to contain a drug or an article of food or drink and examine the contents or cause them to be examined and analyzed.
    Last edited by Mike Gillmore; 08-19-2007 at 12:14 PM.
    To everything there is a season....

  12. #32
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    Mike,
    Your first response essentially repeated what I was saying:
    “The apiary inspection program is ONLY concerned by law about enforcement of AFB prevention as far as I am aware and maybe AHB”

    ===
    Mike Writes:
    Chapter 3715
    Ohio Food, Drug, Cosmetic and Device Law
    3715.03 Right of Entry to Make Inspection
    ===

    Mike this law as I can tell, is in reference to the DOA and not the apiary inspection program which is only concerned with AFB and AHB in the apiary. The DOA has their own inspectors to handle food handling.

    Apiary inspectors are beekeepers not DOA agents, besides having no authority in food handling laws, the apiary program does not train them in such things or expect these duties from them.


    Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
    ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
    FeralBeeProject.com
    Last edited by naturebee; 08-19-2007 at 02:14 PM.

  13. #33
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    Have you ever seen those undercover reports on puppymills? How they can catch things on film when "nobody" is watching?

    Does it make you feel good to know that with a certain amount of confidence, your food supply is safe.

    Recently we had a discussion about organic certification and the possibilities of a random type inspection program involving pulling jars from a store shelf. Seemed some felt that could be a workable option.

    I really wonder how safe restuarants would be if the inspectors would have a period of time to prior announce a upcoming inspection. Say three day notice with time and date appointments. How those puppy mills would have everything just spotless. Boy how so many things can be cleaned up.

    I know when I certified my honey house, I knew they could pop in anytime. I understand the abuse if they had not this ability to stop in anytime.

    Most inspection programs were set up years ago when afb was much more rampant then today. Through education (much helped with state inspection programs), and the enforcement of the inspection program, afb and bee industry problems has seen a better time than prior to these programs.

    But can we have it both ways? On one hand, beekeepers going before congress qouting comments abut the collapse of the food industry without bees. How 1 in 3 bites of food are due to bees. How we demand and expect for the same funding or consideration as other agriculture businesses. But on the other hand, we expect that inspectors should give prior notice. That the inspection program is worthless. That its not worth finding anything worth caring about.

    I announced all my inspections. Does it make you feel good to know that in a good number of these inspections, I would find dead spots in the grass or a spot on a hive stand, that obviously had a hive just hours if not days prior? Its not too hard to figure out what happened. Would you feel good knowing its your nieghbor who was hiding afb hives on another part of the farm away from an inspectors eyes? Does it make you feel good to know that your nieghbor has potential desease and pests, and yet his inspection report was given good report with nothing found, after having days to move bad hives?

    I know the best inspection program in the world is when you can spot check something without prior notice. I want that from the place that slaughters my meat. I want that from the place I buy my milk. And I understand why its that way when they inspect my operation.

    But a bunch of beekeepers after crying how important the bee industry is to the countries food supply, also feels that keeping the industry as healthy and desease free as possible is not worth the same consideration as other areas of agriculture.

    Seems like a bunch of whining and bitchin to me.

    You don't want someone just popping in...then be proactive and request an early inspection in the spring. Get to know your inspector. Work with the system instead of against it. And know that for not just bees, but for many things you consume and rely on, inspections are best when they are not prior notified.

    This very forum on the home page has a story about the Addee operation. They were caught with their pants down when a unannounced surprise inspection revealed some violations. Oh how many of you heard about the situation and spoke badly about the addee's. How many of you acknowledged how this goes on with other operations? And how many of you were happy that someone actually looked at an industry problem that many of us are against. But if these inspectors gave the addee's days if not weeks to clean up their yards by announcing the inspection, it would of never happens. And I didn't hear one person cry and complain about the state inspectors performing randon inspections. Yeah right.......

    I guess some feel that the addee's should of been able to keep the inspectors at bay for whatever time they wanted. Its easy. Don't answer the phone. Don't open the door. Say your busy till next week. With that setup....how effective would any program be?

    Its written into most laws for a reason. And even with most of the states having these laws written this way....most programs are run effectively with notice given. We always look at potential of abuse from inspectors. I find that most abuse in the way of breaking the law in from the other end. And if the inspection programs, not just with bees , but inspection programs across the board, were not written the way they are, you would never find nothing. And we would not be better off for it.

    You only need to go as far as the story on the beesource's homepage to see this abuse.

    Go at it boys.....

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BjornBee View Post
    I announced all my inspections. Does it make you feel good to know that in a good number of these inspections, I would find dead spots in the grass or a spot on a hive stand, that obviously had a hive just hours if not days prior? Its not too hard to figure out what happened..
    Hello Mike,
    You are giving a hypothetical here.
    You boss Dennis did not ask me where the hives were in the vacant spaces where cement blocks are when he visited me. He knows hive numbers vary from time to time, and is trusting of us law abiding beekeepers.

    Quote Originally Posted by BjornBee View Post
    Would you feel good knowing its your nieghbor who was hiding afb hives on another part of the farm away from an inspectors eyes? Does it make you feel good to know that your nieghbor has potential desease and pests, and yet his inspection report was given good report with nothing found, after having days to move bad hives?..
    Again, hypothetical. I don’t know of any beekeeper that does that or heard of such instances. Maybe it may happen, but is probably the very rare exception.

    From what I am seeing is you would be better off worrying about people registering apiaries, which IMO is much more abused than the sneaky law breaking beekeepers hiding AFB infected hives that you say are out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by BjornBee View Post
    You don't want someone just popping in...then be proactive and request an early inspection in the spring. Get to know your inspector. Work with the system instead of against it. And know that for not just bees, but for many things you consume and rely on, inspections are best when they are not prior notified.

    As most often occurs, inspectors on the list get offended. The intent of the prior notice is so the beekeeper can be present to learn and have communication between them and the inspector. If you wish to go on unannounced searches to catch lawbreakers that is fine, but for law abiding citizens deserve be there with the inspector.

    Why does your boss Dennis understand this and not you?


    Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
    ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
    FeralBeeProject.com

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    well, a bad inspector is probably as harmful as a bad anything (teacher, engineer, etc)...you don't want one around.

    i had the oppurtunity to go around for a day with our inspector (who is excelent). most sites were 1-3 hives, either started this year from packages, or older and poorly cared for. there were also exceptions....hives kept by good beekeepers that were well managed. for most around here, beekeeping is a hobby, and the owners were not at home. it was a busy day, hopping from one site to another...i've always wondered why the inspector isn't more sociable when inspecting my hives (never accepts a cup of coffee or a snack...which is way out of charictor for him)....he is just too darn busy, and making (and keeping) appointments would certainly cut down on the number of hives he can inspect in a day. he will make appointments if pressed.

    granted, in theory i'd like to see permission or a search warrent...but in practical terms, we saw a hive (less than a mile from over 20 of my hives) that was falling apart, dangerously leaning, missing frames (but plenty of burr comb to fill in the gaps) no bottom board, sitting on a rotting pallet on top of old tires with 4 full honey supers on....two of us kept the hive stable while the inspector took it apart to inspect. inside? afb, efb, chalkbood, sacbrood.....next to a deadout full of candycanes (supposedly menthol for mite control) and waxmoths, being robbed out by yellow jackets. the owner had moved the hive to this location as a "hospital yard" (tens of miles from his healthy hives....less than a mile from mine...very considerate), was on vacation, had treated in the past, but needed to treat again (as afb was visible). do i really want the inspector to wait for permission to inspect this hive? in fact, i went back to pull a frame from this hive (at the inspectors request) in order to be able to show it at a bee meeting, as it's rare to see afb around here these days....when this inpsector started in the mid seventies, there was mid double digit percentage of afb in the county (hive burnings every night of the week)...this year, 2 hives out of over 1200 inspected.

    i was suprised at the "rights" one gives up if one has bees, but as a beekeeper, i can't find fault with how it is implemented here. of course this is due more to the inspector than due to the way the law is written. i'm sure that not all inspectors are created equal, but even if we had a bad inspector, i sure would want to know about an afb hive full of honey waiting to tip over near my hives.

    deknow

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    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    i've always wondered why the inspector isn't more sociable when inspecting my hives (never accepts a cup of coffee or a snack...which is way out of charictor for him)....he is just too darn busy, and making (and keeping) appointments would certainly cut down on the number of hives he can inspect in a day. he will make appointments if pressed.

    deknow
    Hello Deknow,

    Our inspector seems to schedule in such a way he spends as much time as we need together in the hives. Then by making appointments with me, I am there to give directions to the next beekeeper OR have him follow me there and I turn and drive home to permit total confidentiality with the beekeeper being inspected.

    If I recall he keeps almost 1000 colonies but is still capable of inspecting a several county area and spending time with each beekeeper.

    Of course I find myself watching closely over his shoulder and stealing colony handling techniques. This year I stole his technique for inspecting colonies with minimal disturbance. Intresting what you can pick up from just observing.

    Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
    ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
    FeralBeeProject.com

  17. #37
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    Hypothetical my butt Joe!

    My wife works in the medical industry. Do you not think people run around the nursing home and hospital when someone annouces that the state inspectors walked in the front door and are taking a few minutes to talk to the administrator prior to walking on the floor?

    Do you think that cooks and restuarant personal aren't feverishly cleaning up crap and moving boxes when the first person greets the inspector at the establishments door and asks they wait while the manager is called upon?

    I actually was standing in the lobby of Dutch Gold Honey this year when the inspector "popped" in. The office lady asked very nicely that he sign in and wait till the manager could be free. For the next 20 minutes he was "finishing" up with a phone call. Yeah right.

    Anyone honest enough to admit it would do things a little different regardless of the business, if you knew ahead of time that an inspector was showing up tomorrow morning. I'm not suggesting that people are breaking laws. But perhaps a box moved here, some cleanup there, something moved out of site there, something shoved in a closet over there....it happens all the time.

    But your fantasyland view of beekeeping is of a utopian industry that this does not occur in. Your telling me I have seen it in every business I have ever been in, but beekeepers are different? Hogwash!

    If addee's knew the inspectors were showing up to look for pesticide misuse as you somehow think inspectors should do, no violations would of been found. I use an example thats been posted on this site for months, and yet you suggest that my own experience with hives moved just prior to me arriving is purely "hypothetical", and sugget that this could not be the case.

    You got me laughing good.

    BTW, Dennis is not my boss.

  18. #38
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    I will add Joe, that Dennis does understand why the law is written the way it is. He also knows the importance of keeping harmony and on the good side of beekeepers. His policy is that beekeepers be notified. But he also tells his inspectors that once a card has been mailed, once multiple phone calls are made, and once no response is received by the beekeeper (which does happen, with sometimes open opposition)....he has no problem telling an inspector to pop in and do the inspection. He may of "suggested" something different to you on the phone. Thats called "office politics". But perhaps you think that does not go on either....

    I don't think my view is different from Dennis' I know what the law allows. So does he. I know how Dennis administers it. He agrees that beekeepers should be present, as do I. Thats how I did it.
    But Dennis also knows why the law is stated the way it is. And without it, the program would grind to a halt. And the true intent of the program would be lost.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Western Pennsylvania
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    [
    Quote Originally Posted by BjornBee View Post
    My wife works in the medical industry. Do you not think people run around the nursing home and hospital when someone announces that the state inspectors walked in the front door and are taking a few minutes to talk to the administrator prior to walking on the floor?.
    Where is there a ‘moving of a beehive’ in that story’?
    The beehive story is hypothetical.

    [
    Quote Originally Posted by BjornBee View Post
    Do you think that cooks and restuarant personal aren't feverishly cleaning up crap and moving boxes when the first person greets the inspector at the establishments door and asks they wait while the manager is called upon?
    An acquaintance of mine works in food service, he said they walk right in, no delays allowed. But remember, food inspection is separate from the apiary inspection program.

    [
    Quote Originally Posted by BjornBee View Post
    I actually was standing in the lobby of Dutch Gold Honey this year when the inspector "popped" in. The office lady asked very nicely that he sign in and wait till the manager could be free. For the next 20 minutes he was "finishing" up with a phone call. Yeah right.?
    Maybe he had to use the restroom.

    However,,, If they would have made an appointment, there would be no waiting.

    I doubt, 20 minutes is gong to be enough time to turn a health hazarded into a model operation. These inspectors are experts and will find violations.
    Again, food inspection is separate from the apiary inspection program to which the topic is about.



    [
    Quote Originally Posted by BjornBee View Post
    But perhaps a box moved here, some cleanup there, something moved out of site there, something shoved in a closet over there....it happens all the time..?
    And a inspector won’t look in a closet?
    Keep in mind they can’t hide everything from trained professionals. IMO, they get away with very little.

    [
    Quote Originally Posted by BjornBee View Post
    But your fantasyland view of beekeeping is of a utopian industry that this does not occur in. Your telling me I have seen it in every business I have ever been in, but beekeepers are different? Hogwash!.
    Again, the trust I felt in Dennis when he visited prompted me to invite him to inspect every colony when only 10% was required at that visit. Dennis and my regular inspector can pop in any time, but I sure would like to be there to see them in person, instead of a bunch of tilted hives after the fact,
    >>which is what this topic is all about.<<

    If you want to conduct surprise raids on operations, why don’t they do them at night while the beekeepers are in bed? They can duct tape the beekeeper to a chair and have guards watch the children and wife to be sure they don’t throw something in a closet. I will propose that the Apiary inspection program be moved under the jurisdiction of the FBI next meeting.

    I get my car inspected every year. I know the exact date that the inspection will be, but I still occasionally have a violation. In fact, yearly inspections with prior notice prompt me to keep my truck in good shape all year round. Like the vehicle inspection, you will have beekeepers keeping better care of their beehives year-round.

    Yes, you will have an occasional violator, but it is not just cause for unannounced searches, as in the prohibition days.

    Speaking of, going to the club for surprise inspection of a Yuengling or 2 OR 4,

    This message sponsored by:
    http://www.yuengling.com/

    Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
    ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
    FeralBeeProject.com

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    lewisberry, Pa, usa
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    One last thing...I would like to be clear. I am not in favor or somehow think that unannounced inspections are good or needed. I actually like the way inspectors call and notify beekeepers. I was trying to point out the fact that as you give in one area, perhaps something is lost in another.
    There is no doubt in my mind that surprise inspections would find much more problems. Announced inspections allow thing to be covered up. And I was trying to point out that in other industries, we would be appalled if food inspectors, medical inspectors, etc., would need to schedule an appointment and announced their inspections. Thats why I brought up puppy mills, restuarants, and other items. Its the catch 22....I am assuming that others see the need for surprise inspections for many things...to make sure slaughter houses are healthy, your grandparents are being taken care of, and puppies are being cared for. These are extreme examples of course. But as a society, we not only see the need for inspections, but understand the abuses that could happen if not for these surprise inspections.
    With that said, I want notified the next time I'm up for bee inspection. But I also know that if I fail to return a phone call, make it hard for inspectors to reach me, and somehow skirt the issue...they can pop in.

    Its nice to be notified. But I wonder if the food inspector would understand if I demanded they give me 48 hour notice and "schedule" an inspection the next time they want to look at my honey house. I'll see if the nusing home can request such service. I doubt it. But while were at it, if some inspector is going to "inspect" your grandmothers nursing home room or hospital stay....don't you want that right protected as much as for your bees.

    Someone come play......

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