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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Niles, Michigan USA
    Posts
    167

    Default Beekeeper of little brain...

    I am a beekeeper of little brain so somebody help me:

    SAME number of mites & MORE bees = LESS mites per bee. This is good, yes?

    Also:

    Shorter cap time = less damage to pupae from mites. This is also good, yes?

    Why is everyone saying no difference?

    Also, how long was the study? I'm told mites don't really cause problems until the second year...
    Kevin
    Milton Township, Michigan (near South Bend, Indiana)

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,761

    Default

    >MB, I tried the link in your last message and it didn't work for me. Anyone else try it?

    Join the organic group. Sign in. Use the link.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Huntington, West Virginia, USA
    Posts
    438

    Default hello, Kevin

    if I remember Dr. Berry presentation correctly, her study was just one year. She did find more mite on the small cell bees, but it was not enough more to be statistically significant. There were both more mite AND more bees in the small cell hives. So I'm not certain you could say there were fewer mites per bee, but perhaps you are correct here.
    Dr. Berry did not study whether the bees on small cell emerged earlier than on large cell.
    I was very pleased to see researchers looking at small cell. Dr. Huang said he has read a European study on the difference in mite counts on small cell vrs. large cell which lasted 4 years and found essentially the same results as Dr. Berry's 1 year study.
    Hope that informaiton is useful to you. -Danno

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Loganville, GA
    Posts
    2,172

    Default

    Hey dantheman!

    Long time no see. Hope y'all are doing well over there! Tell em all howdy for me if you get a chance and remember. Hopefully we'll run into each other at the fall meeting.

    I for one know the hard work and dedication that goes into the the UGA Bee Lab. And am very appreciative of the diligence of the staff!!

    I would hope that most can take this information as it's given and be able to eventually go with the end result someday as others release their findings as well. All to often these studies yield conflicting results with like studies that then lead to further studies to hopefully determine why the difference! When does it ever end!

    Thing is, I don't doubt the honesty of the report given by Jennifer and even further in the process by which the study was designed. There is obviously more to come as the study progresses and hopefully there are others working at a base line comparison. So that we can get well informed information that will lead us forward.

    I know what I see from my own hives. Most are regressed and I keep 3 different strains. Separated of course. I can see what the lab is reporting. No difference between small and large sell that is of any significance. I have thankfully lost no bees to any pests or any other reason that wasn't a result of my own doing.

    I find these results fascinating and look forward to more. But I have to ask an honest question. Given that the capping times are reduced by smaller cell size. And hence resulting in a shorter brood time. And I have heard from one reliable source that I trust. That the hatch time was 20 days. I haven't checked that personally. As I have other means to my madness. Not research. But the question being. That if the bees are able to biologically alter their emergence time, then would not the mites have the same capability as well?

    Are there other plus' to having small cell other than the brooding cycle? Such as more bees in the hive. More bees, more mites? More bees more production or bigger bees more production? Doesn't that bring up an old argument? Where is the significance in those findings? Maybe some light will be shed there in the next report?

    I guess in the mean time i will just keep on keeping on. Lend my encouragement to those with the means and support if I can.

    Hey, but you can see so much further from the top of the fence!!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Princeton, West Virginia
    Posts
    478

    Default

    Just my thoughts on research. Lots of university research centers depend on corporate grants for funding. This in itself puts pressure on the researchers to find treatments ways to increase the proffits of the corporations.

    Don't get me wrong, we need research, but it is the beekeepers who are willing to do his own research, that will find successful non chemical treatments of the problems that we have. We will be shot at by the establishment such as MB was at HAS. At the HAS confrence, I was impressed with the statements, (not only by MB), made on behalf of small cell. Last year I made the decission to not use Checkmite unless it was necessary . After attending the confrence I plan convert one of the hives from my best strain of bees to small cell. When I am satisfied with the results, more will follow.
    Last edited by kc in wv; 07-21-2007 at 08:00 PM.
    What I Smoke has a Sting to it

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    1,933

    Default

    I wouldnt assume bee labs actually get big bucks, because they dont. A couple do but those are very few. The only thing that keeps most bee labs going is peoples genuine interest in bees, not making money on chemical companies. Ive read about 100 or so research articles in the last 2 months and not a single one of those has anything to do with researching a pesticide. Most of them have something to do with trying to get away from using pesticides and some are about native bees. Theres certainly no money for the chem comps in native bees. One of the great things about HAS was meeting many researchers that care about bees and beekeepers. It was nice to meet you as well kc in wv.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Loganville, GA
    Posts
    2,172

    Default

    And with this small cell study being funded by the GBA, it's nice to know that there isn't that kind of pressure being put on our researchers to skew any results. Just to do what they know is right.

    Wouldn't it be nice to have the Associations across the nation coming together to fund the research that's needed for it's own industry and beloved hobby! Instead of being paid for by an unscrupulous corporate America that sets ready to shove the latest garbage down our throats at what ever cost.

    Okay, I'm outta here! Yaw take this some other direction!!

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Princeton, West Virginia
    Posts
    478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelW View Post
    It was nice to meet you as well kc in wv.
    I enjoyed getting to talk with you. Our conversation got me interested SARE.

    I think the beesource.com connection broke a lot of barriers for lots of people getting to know each other. Gabe Blatt the president of the next HAS convention has expressed an interest in having something for and to promote besource.com
    What I Smoke has a Sting to it

  9. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kc in wv View Post
    Lots of university research centers depend on corporate grants for funding.
    Not a penny of corporate money at the UGA beelab. The state pays Dr Delaplane's and Jennifer's salaries, lab maintenance and gas for the trucks. Everything and everyone else are paid out of grants. No grants, no research. Grants are typically from the USDA and beekeeper's organizations (thank you GA Beekeeper's Assn). Everything is run on a shoestring.....no extravagance. If your state doesn't have a funded beelab you might ask yourself, why not? For those states that do, they deserve our thanks for investing their state tax dollars to support an important industry and benefiting beekeepers in states that are unwilling to make that same investment.

    I'm not sure, but I think that the small cell study was actually not funded by any grant. Some equipment, bees and labor were supplied by Bill Owens and others but much was the product of penny pinching at the lab. The small cell study was largely a product of Jennifer's desire to keep bees without any chemicals.

    Anyone who has followed the work from the UGA beelab will notice that every research project conducted during Dr Delaplane's tenure has focused on reducing chemicals in our hives. IPM is his mantra. Anyone who believes that the UGA lab has enjoyed the largess of big chemical company money, needs to look again.


    Good to hear from you Biz...I don't see you posting much these days so I assume that they have you burning up the highways again.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Princeton, West Virginia
    Posts
    478

    Default I stand to be corrected

    It is good to know that this research is going on without the big corporation influence.

    I have been an organic gardener since back in the 70's and it has always bothered me that I had to use chemicals for beekeeping. Back when it was our main problem, I would take the risk and only treat for AFB every 2 or 3 years.

    Until recent years, I as a beekeeper relied upon what information was supplied by my state apiary department, local beekeepers, and the suppliers.
    All that was told by these sources was use chemicals. With the beekeeping community going to the internet the alternative methods are gaining strength because of the increased exposure.

    Thank you
    What I Smoke has a Sting to it

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Monroe Ga, U.S.A.
    Posts
    124

    Default

    Well...I was going to reply about the big corporate money that doesn't exist, but beemandan wakes up at 4 every morning. lol

    I will have to agree that the bee research you see out there is trying to get beekeepers away from chemicals. The biggest problem that I see is no one is listing! When you have several studies telling you things like screen bottoms work and there is a such then as mite resistant bees beekeepers should invest into the results of research.

    Use screen bottoms board, buy hygienic queens, and do a mite test prior to treating...for that matter just stop treating. What do you think is killing all the bees anyway?

    BB

  12. #32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Bob View Post
    beemandan wakes up at 4 every morning. lol
    Someone's got to get up and turn on the coffee pot!
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Monroe Ga, U.S.A.
    Posts
    124

    Default

    Yeah, but it doesn't do me any good if I can't share some of the coffee with you!

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Loganville, GA
    Posts
    2,172

    Default

    Yeah, ok Bill. But tell us what you really think.........

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Warren, Iowa, USA
    Posts
    31

    Default

    I have seen the video of Jennifer Berry's presentation only once and that was several days ago so I may have a couple of facts incorrect but I thought she said the mite populations for the bees on small cell was

    1) higher than the mite population of the bees on large cell
    2) not statistically significantly higher
    3) but in their (the researchers') opinions the mite population was significantly higher

    So far doesn't it look like the small cell isn't making a difference (or is making a negative difference) for bees in the study that normally don't need to be treated in Bill's beeyard?

    I know the study results haven't been written up yet but if the small cell is shown not to have any positive affect why do Bill's bees not need to be treated?

    She did say something about a study where the pheromones seemed to make a helpful difference but the small cell didn't.

    Thanks,
    Dan
    Last edited by pgmrdan; 11-20-2007 at 04:28 PM.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,598

    Default

    I believe you've stumbled upon the proverbial $64,000 question
    where did you see the video?

    Dave

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    McAlester, OK
    Posts
    101

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Warren, Iowa, USA
    Posts
    31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drobbins View Post
    I believe you've stumbled upon the proverbial $64,000 question
    where did you see the video?

    Dave


    I have my own idea as to why Bill doesn't have to treat.

    In the video Jennifer Berry talks about Bill collecting queens from feral colonies that display good survivability. That sounds like a survival of the fittest breeding program to me. So my guess for the answer to the $64,000 question is genetics.

    And since according to some 'big gun' researchers it's relatively easy to breed for varroa tolerance I think my guess is on the right track.

    http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/varroatolerantbee.htm

    Thanks,
    Dan
    Last edited by pgmrdan; 11-20-2007 at 06:35 AM.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    5,041

    Sad Ferals are not the silver bullet

    I have been trapping ferals for decades here in suburbia. For the most part they behave the same as purchased strains. Go gangbusters for the first and second year, then collapse.
    Addendum: I have been introducing "domesticated" bees into this same area for over three decades. So what is the definiton of feral?

    In a more rural setting nearby, I have two colonies of dark trapped ferals that have been going five years or more. They resemble carniolans that was introducing into that area in the early 1980's.

    My trapped ferals are dropping as fast as my SC bees, and some are both.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Warren, Iowa, USA
    Posts
    31

    Default

    The queens Bill collects are from feral colonies that appear to have survived at least a couple of seasons so I suppose he passes up some queens.

    Did you read the paper at the URL I provided? I thought it was pretty good.

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