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  1. #1

    Question Emergency queens

    Hi,
    I have read in books or magazines( I do not remember exactly) that emergency queens are not so good because of the comb(the cells are too small because of the brood rear).If you use new build comb-the queen laying eggs for first time you have chance to have good queens. It’s true?
    Can you help?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by drone1952 View Post
    Hi,
    I have read in books or magazines( I do not remember exactly) that emergency queens are not so good because of the comb(the cells are too small because of the brood rear).If you use new build comb-the queen laying eggs for first time you have chance to have good queens. Its true?
    Can you help?
    Generally swarm queens are the best you can get, because the girls get the queen to lay the egg right into the queen cell, and they take really good care of them. Emergency are just that, emergencies. They are often made from less than perfect larva, and raised in cells that are in less then perfect postions.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  3. #3
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    Default

    I would add that emergency queen cells are often from larvaw that are too old and havent been fred the right diet with the right attention from the worker bees.

  4. #4
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    Swarm queens are always the best fed. If given eggs, the bees know how to choose an appropriately aged larvae better than your average queen breeder. I'm not really sure how the shape of the cell affects the queen produced, but I admit that large, symmetrical cells seem asthetically pleasing.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspera View Post
    Swarm queens are always the best fed. If given eggs, the bees know how to choose an appropriately aged larvae better than your average queen breeder. I'm not really sure how the shape of the cell affects the queen produced, but I admit that large, symmetrical cells seem asthetically pleasing.
    I found a hive recently that built a queen cell out of the face of the frame that was almost 4" long, it really looked like...... ......well you know . A couple frames over I found another one, but not quite as long. They were capped, so I am curious to see what comes out .
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  6. #6
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    >I would add that emergency queen cells are often from larvaw that are too old and havent been fred the right diet with the right attention from the worker bees.

    That is one theory. Here's Jay Smiths:

    "It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances.

    "The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterq...gency%20Method
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  7. #7
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    Default Not That I'm At All Interested

    in..
    >it really looked like...... ......well you know,

    however i am more that just curious about what emerges from the forementioned unit that has been erected in your box.

    I'm thinking this could be the Holy Grail of Queen Breeders around the world. This could be the Hass Avacado of beekeeping.

    Four inches of Queen would surely be easy to find in on a frame, unless all her offspring are 4" long too.

    The new Super Bee, oblivious to Varroa, predator of Hornets From Hell, Brazillian Basher. Able to shred ANY flower to access the nectaries.

    There goes the Lang hive..Bee space wont ever be the same again.

    Migratory beeks will be putting one hive per pallet- 40 colonies to the truckload.

    May the saga continue.

    Please,PLEASE, please let us know what comes of this.

    No, seriously.
    -jim
    OK? Please?
    My Mom's other kids are smarter than me, but i'm not nearly as nice.

  8. #8

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    Thanks All of you for answers.Thanks Michael for you help.I know I did read this.Thanks publishing books like this in your site helping beekeepers like me.Thanks.
    George

  9. #9
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    As always, MB demonstrates what can be learned by blending avid reading with ample experience. I enjoyed that little blurb from Jay Smith. I'll have to start reading his books.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >
    The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."

    I think Jay Smith is wright with the idea that a emergency queen cell doesn't allow the larva to turn back and eat the rest of royal jelley. This situation and the fact that the bees most of the time choose older larvae explain the low performance of such queens.

    But he is wrong saying: "if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens."

    A queen from an emergency cell is always inferior to another raised in normal cell, doesn't matter if the bees choose to swarm or to change the old queen. Because of the forced breeding, her abdomen surely won't be well developped. Maybe the bees will create an larger cell if using wax from new combs, but what about the age of larva? Won't be the same? Older?

    Let's consider that in a colony remains only the frames with eggs. What will do the bees when the queen is misssing? They'll expect the eggs to become larvae, but won't create queen cell with 12 hours old larvae, they always wait the larvae to become older. I don't know why, but the bees always proceed this way.

    Anyway, emergency queen cells are hard to work with and the resulting queens have inferior performance.
    Last edited by Cristian Radut; 08-09-2007 at 03:37 AM.

  11. #11
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    reading this post makes me think what the old time beekeepers were thinking when they would go out in the summer and pinch queen heads to have the hives raise young queens for the winter. it worked for them, I would call these emergency queens.... when you go out and make a split and let the queen less split raise its own queen, wouldn't this be a emergency queen, seems like it would to me. I have had some very good queens this way!!! I dont believe in the statement that all emergency queens are inferior, but do believe it is the best chance to get a inferior queen,,,,,, I was just thinking.... see the smoke!!!
    Last edited by TwT; 08-09-2007 at 04:06 AM.
    Ted

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    The best chance to...?....
    Yes, it is, surely it's!

  13. #13
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    but dont get me wrong, on adverage you will get more good queens than inferior queens, 3 out of 4 should be fine, might even be better than that...
    Ted

  14. #14
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    Funny, this whole subject has been on my mind lately. I have been doing splits by just simply letting the "new" half raise a Queen on their own. Then I start reading about inferior Queens created this way. Huhmmm...guess then I have been doing it wrong. O.K., the question from me at this point is if my emergency Queens are less than good, wont they simply superceed her fairly soon? I guess I just do not want to bother with buying new Queens unless I want some different genetics ect.
    I am about to do 40 splits here..... is my thinking wrong? I supose I need to learn to make my own Queens here one day.

  15. #15
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    BTW... Ted- you made me feel a whole lot better when I read your posts. Perhaps I was not doing it all wrong, lol.

  16. #16
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    >But he is wrong saying: "if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens."

    He says that based on his experiments with new comb as opposed to old comb. On old comb they float the larvae out and the larvae can't eat all of that back in the old cell. On new comb they actually tear it down. Jay claims they never use too old of a larvae.

    >A queen from an emergency cell is always inferior to another raised in normal cell, doesn't matter if the bees choose to swarm or to change the old queen. Because of the forced breeding, her abdomen surely won't be well developped.

    "Forced breeding"?

    > Maybe the bees will create an larger cell if using wax from new combs, but what about the age of larva? Won't be the same? Older?

    Not according to Jay.

    "Cells Built From New Combs

    "In the year 1934 I observed a strong colony in a hive containing only new white combs. They were hybrid bees and I had removed their queen intending to introduce a better queen. I had to ship out so many queens that I put off requeening this colony. We finally had a queen to introduce and on examining this colony I was astonished to see large well-developed queen cells such as I had seldom seen. Upon further examining this colony I found that they had torn down the comb and a number of worker cells and had built these fine cells over the very small larvae in the cells. " --Jay Smith Better Queens

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterq...%20New%20Combs
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  17. #17
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    Take Control

    When you make a split and let them raise there own Emergency Q Cell You can do 1 of two things

    Place Divide in Parent Location (do this if you want the divide left in the same yard) it will catch the field force that is bring in the groceries so they will have proper nutrition. MAKE sure the parent hive has plenty of stores if not feed. (ALSO IT IS BEST TO FEED PARENT HIVE THE DAY BEFORE MAKING THE DIVIDE IF NOT MUCH NECTAR IS COMING IN like you would any cell builder.

    OR move them to a new location (1 mile at least) and feed when you place them.

    Next in 5 or 6 days go through the frames of brood and knock off all sealed Queen cell. LEAVE 1 queen cell that has a small larvae with lots of royal jelly I like leaving one on the side edges if possible in stead of one coming out of the face of the comb. (CAUTION before you knock off to many queen cells always locate a selected cell to keep) And the reason I said to knock off all cells but 1 is I use to make most all my divides like this before I started grafting Is Several of them would SWARM on me

    So take Control of the situation and You will have some very well raised EMQ

    One word to the wise if you are in a bad drought don't even try you usually will end up disappointed.

  18. #18
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    How much honey did you got with those emergency queens that you consider fine? Emergency queens are always smaller than normal queens, according to my eyes.

    Yet, when creating emergency cells, the bees choose all kind of larvae, from 1 to 3 days older and first will born the bad queens, raised from old larvae; when get born, in a few hours all the rest of queen cell will be destroyed by her. And the colony remains with "the worst of" queens.

    I wonder why queen breeders graft larvae, use starter colony and finishing colony, instead of making "the best of" queens using Smith's advice... So, i think i'll ask Joe Latshaw for this.
    Last edited by Cristian Radut; 08-12-2007 at 11:41 PM.

  19. #19
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    I agree that, most of the time, one can get good queens from emergency cells, but sometimes I see (after 3-4 days after made queenless) a larva that is much bigger than the others. I wouldn't bet any money on her!
    Last edited by Riki; 08-14-2007 at 04:35 PM.

  20. #20
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    Default All queen Cells are EMQC Except

    Unless they are swarm cells or superseder Cells

    Even the Queen cells when you graft are EMERGENCE Queen cells You just have Control on what age larvae is used.

    So about 5/6 days after you have made up the divide knock off all sealed Queen cells and leave 1 that has lots of royal jelly on the edge of the comb.

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