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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,390

    Default

    >>Making nucs from your worst hives will give you poor splits.
    When I take my colonies south for the winter the poorest ones are the ones that don't survive.
    Make your nucs from strong hives.<<

    You're comparing 4 or 5 frame July nucs for overwintering, with nucs made for building strong colonies to overwinter. It's different.

    The whole point is to use the weak colonies for making your nucs. All you need is a frame of brood and bees...maybe a frame and a half. You use the resource that's in your weak colonies to your benefit. The nuc is requeened with a laying queen or a cell. They're only supposed to build up enough to fill their little chamber. They winter just fine.

    And, now that you don't have to split your strong colonies, in the spring, to replace your winter kill...remember, you made nucs last July from your non-productive colonies...you can let them make honey.

    Best of both worlds.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Mineral, Nr Richmond VA
    Posts
    177

    Default

    I plan on trying this approach for nucs...
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209740

    What I do not understand is how a hive with just 5 frames and only a small amount of bees can survive a cold spell. I would have thought that 8 or 10 frames would be better?

    Has anyone tried a nuc shed? put a load of nucs into some structure?

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Seattle, Washington State
    Posts
    4,398

    Default

    Palmer:

    Your mehtod worked wonders and thank you for your time in helping me out.

  4. #24

    Default

    I to am planning on overwintering some nucs this year. With regards to the comment about a hive with 4-5 frames making it through winter...
    I had a TBH I made last year and installed a swarm into it. Due to work, schedules, kids events, etc. I was unable to complete the top bars I needed to fill the hive. The Top bars were about 15" and there were 7-8 of them available for the hive. I anticipated losing them over the winter, but I will be darned that they made it through just fine.

    So, IMHO 4-5 frames would be plenty for a colony to make it through the winter.

    QUESTION THOUGH: Survival wise, is it better to have a 4-5 frame nuc overwintered or a single medium overwintered? Which stands a better chance for survival?
    If you see me runnin' you'd better keep up!
    http://hillshivery.blogspot.com/

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default

    I am thinking about using double screens and stacking my nucs. I know MB tried stacking them once, but not sure what he had between them and how it turned out. I am hoping that it will be like using a double screen on a two queen colony. Biggest issue I think will be feeding, but I am using my 8 frame boxes so there should be plenty of room to leave them plenty of stores......we have enough good days here in the winter that I can feed fondant if need be.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,208

    Default

    >I am thinking about using double screens and stacking my nucs. I know MB tried stacking them once, but not sure what he had between them and how it turned out.

    I did it with a double screen over the hole on an inner cover. It was too much moisture for the nucs to handle. I don't recommend ANY opening between the hive below and the nuc above, let alone a full double screen.

    > I am hoping that it will be like using a double screen on a two queen colony.

    It's not. You will have cold to create condensation.

    >Biggest issue I think will be feeding

    Probably not. If you give the nuc plenty of capped honey they won't need feeding.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ballard County, KY
    Posts
    348

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Limey View Post

    Has anyone tried a nuc shed? put a load of nucs into some structure?

    I was curious about this too. I have two outside unheated buildings, one with lawnmower in and the other is our chicken house. I could build a shelf with exterior entrance for nucs or hives. I was also considering building a small shed on the lawnmower building and could set nucs under a roof and three wall enclosure or four wall for that matter. This would keep them out of the wind and offer some protection from draft. I'm just curious if this would be of any benefit to wintering 5 frame nucs.

    Tim

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Seattle, Washington State
    Posts
    4,398

    Default

    Tim and Blue:

    I would read Larry Connor (sp) book called "Increased Essentials". It is a great book.

    Try using Kirk Webster and Michael Palmers method of overwintering nucs in a deep that is split with a divider. It works great.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Batesburg-Leesville, South Carolina
    Posts
    1,443

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    Last year I tried two methods.
    In mid July I made up nucs in ten frame deeps. I put a couple frames of brood, a frame of honey/pollen and filled the rest of the box with empty frames and frames of foundation. I added a new laying queen and left them alone. I did not feed them at all. I did group them in groups of four. I put 2" thick styrofoam insulation under them and on top of them. They had a 3/8" X 3" bottom entrance and a 3/8" x 3" top entrance/vent hole. I wrapped them with tar paper.
    In mid August I split a ten frame deep with a specially designed feeder and put 1 frame of brood, 1 frame of honey/pollen and two empty drawn frames on each side of the feeder. I fed these nucs until November and then Put them on top of the inner cover of a strong colony. I put 2" insulation on top of them and wrapped them with Tar paper.
    The Ten Frame nucs did great and are my strongest hives this spring. The four frame nucs all perished though the winter. I think there were probably not enough young bees in the four frame nucs going into winter. They still had plenty of stores this spring. Moisture may have been a problem although there didin't seem to be ecessive moisture or mold in the boxes this spring.

    if you are making them with ten frame deeps, and filling them out, are you really making nucs? you seem to me to be filling out hives.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ballard County, KY
    Posts
    348

    Default Great Reading

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef Isaac View Post
    Tim and Blue:

    I would read Larry Connor (sp) book called "Increased Essentials". It is a great book.

    Try using Kirk Webster and Michael Palmers method of overwintering nucs in a deep that is split with a divider. It works great.

    Thanks Chef Isaac---
    I just returned "Increased Essentials" to the library, I got it through interlibarary loan and plan to pick up a copy for my library. It is a great book and I'd recommend it to anyone making nucs.

    Tim

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Salem, Oregon
    Posts
    953

    Default

    Michael Palmer has it figured out.
    In reading down through some of the posts, I felt like there is a tendancy to make things more complicated than is necissary.
    I have 50 nucs on hand for overwintering at present.
    Hopefully my fall attrition in my full strength hives isn't so bad that I can't see at least half of them through.

    Heres my story from last year:

    http://orsba.proboards27.com/index.c...ead=1162322072
    I have exactly ONE hive more than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond question.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Sparta, Tennessee
    Posts
    2,137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peggjam View Post
    "What is a candy board? How do you make them?"


    Candy boards mean different things to different people. To me a candy board is a mold that I place sugar that has been moistened enough to be placed in the mold and allowed to dry, which makes a hard block of sugar that is then placed on the hive sugar side down.

    To others it is a mold into which they place a fondant, which is cooked sugar, that is allowed to cool and forms a solid block of sugar which is also placed on the hive sugar side down.
    I have a few questions:
    1. what are the demensions of the mold?
    2. You don't use any newspaper under the candy, right?
    3. Do you put the candy directly on the top bars of the frames?
    4. I presume that you have an empty full depth NUC box on top of the lowest NUC to add space for the Candy boards?
    5. Or does it make sense to make a spacer board on top of a second box of frames, so in effect you have a five frame nuc with a full depth 5 frame box and a spacer (2 inch or so) on top for the candy board and then the migratory top...

    Thanks in advance for your answers...

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Sparta, Tennessee
    Posts
    2,137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peggjam View Post
    The biggest killer of hives in the winter is moisture...Wet bees are dead bees. Think about using a candy board feeder, or granulated sugar on newspaper inside an empty hive body.

    Hives pushed together and either wrapped with tarpaper, or surrounded by insulation board, plus a small bottom entrance, and larger upper entrance will winter better than stand alone hives. You might even consider stacking a second bunch on top of the bottom ones, and wrapping the whole stack. You will need a really good wind break as well.
    How big and where would I put the upper entrance? I built six NUC Boxes this past week, using the dadant 5 frame NUC as my model. Only difference is I made Migratory covers vs the telescoping covers and I don't have inner covers...

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Troupsburg, NY
    Posts
    4,074

    Default

    "I have a few questions:"

    I'm gonna try this before I have my first cup of coffee, which is brewin now, if it gets too bad, you will never see this response.

    "1. what are the demensions of the mold?"

    Make it's outside deminsions the same as what ever hive you will use it on. You can make the depth 3-4 inches.

    "2. You don't use any newspaper under the candy, right?"

    No.


    "3. Do you put the candy directly on the top bars of the frames?"

    Yes.


    "4. I presume that you have an empty full depth NUC box on top of the lowest NUC to add space for the Candy boards?"

    No, the candyboard acts as your cover.

    "5. Or does it make sense to make a spacer board on top of a second box of frames, so in effect you have a five frame nuc with a full depth 5 frame box and a spacer (2 inch or so) on top for the candy board and then the migratory top..."

    No.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Troupsburg, NY
    Posts
    4,074

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffzhear View Post
    How big and where would I put the upper entrance? I built six NUC Boxes this past week, using the dadant 5 frame NUC as my model. Only difference is I made Migratory covers vs the telescoping covers and I don't have inner covers...

    A one inch hole should be plenty for your upper entrance. I am playing with putting it in the candyboard, and then placing the candy around it when I pour it in, then I wouldn't have to drill alot of holes in my box.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,390

    Default

    Dwight said:
    >>In mid August I split a ten frame deep with a specially designed feeder and put 1 frame of brood, 1 frame of honey/pollen and two empty drawn frames on each side of the feeder. I fed these nucs until November and then Put them on top of the inner cover of a strong colony. I put 2" insulation on top of them and wrapped them with Tar paper.
    The Ten Frame nucs did great and are my strongest hives this spring. The four frame nucs all perished though the winter. I think there were probably not enough young bees in the four frame nucs going into winter.<<

    Dwight, you may have fed the 4 frame nucs too much. If the combs are full of feed, how will the bees raise a large population of young bees for winter?

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Sparta, Tennessee
    Posts
    2,137

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by peggjam View Post
    ""What is a candy board? How do you make them?"


    Candy boards mean different things to different people. To me a candy board is a mold that I place sugar that has been moistened enough to be placed in the mold and allowed to dry, which makes a hard block of sugar that is then placed on the hive sugar side down. ..."
    I'm following you...but, are you saying that this hard block of sugar, molded to act as a outside cover will withstand the winter elements...particularily rain? Maybe I am missing something....which is not uncommon... <smile>

    And thank you for your thoughts...I really appreciate it. Oh, and this one inch hole...When I drill a hole I presume I put it as high up as I can get it, right?
    Last edited by Jeffzhear; 07-29-2007 at 09:00 AM. Reason: clarification needed

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Berkey, OH, USA
    Posts
    1,487

    Default

    Michael Palmer - or others.

    Is it too late to start up some 5 frame nucs? Last year I did queen cells in 5 frame medium nucs Aug. 5. None of them survived. Of course we had a bad fall flow and I failed to feed.

    This year i was thinking about doing 8 frame medium nucs. I run all mediums so it is not helpful to do deep nucs.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Troupsburg, NY
    Posts
    4,074

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffzhear View Post
    I'm following you...but, are you saying that this hard block of sugar, molded to act as a outside cover will withstand the winter elements...particularily rain? Maybe I am missing something....which is not uncommon... <smile>

    And thank you for your thoughts...I really appreciate it. Oh, and this one inch hole...When I drill a hole I presume I put it as high up as I can get it, right?
    The wooden frame protects the sugar from the elements, and of course it would have a wooden top as well. In other words you would need to build a frame with cover for each hive, and then fill them with sugar.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Troupsburg, NY
    Posts
    4,074

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BerkeyDavid View Post
    Michael Palmer - or others.

    Is it too late to start up some 5 frame nucs? Last year I did queen cells in 5 frame medium nucs Aug. 5. None of them survived. Of course we had a bad fall flow and I failed to feed.

    This year i was thinking about doing 8 frame medium nucs. I run all mediums so it is not helpful to do deep nucs.
    It's ok if you feed them, and you give them drawn comb to start with.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

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