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  1. #41
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    >>Queen breeder from Texas and a reseacher trying to drum up support for this CCD and of course ,lobby for money. I was disappionted in what I heard.


    With your perspective on the issue, I agree. CCD has gotten the countries attention, what not a better time to ask for money.

    But with the perspective that CCD has merit, and to be frank, i haven't seen anything that disbelieves the CCD losses, drumming support and lobbying for research is nothing to be disappointed in.
    This industry has been under supported in research and developments for years.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  2. #42
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    Ian wrote,

    > CCD has gotten the countries attention, what not a better time to ask for money.

    >But with the perspective that CCD has merit, and to be frank, i haven't seen anything that disbelieves the CCD losses,

    Ian, that's almost funny, I haven't seen any proof yet that proves anything.

    Now it's cell phones and CCD. What's next, I can't wait.

    Au hell Ian, I think the marshens came and tooke'm.

    But on a more seriously note, why should the goverment be called every time something like this happens in a industry?

    I also have a heavy equipment contruction rental bussiness.

    This year is going to be extremly slow because of the housing slow down here in Calif. So, I guess I should ask the goverment for a hand out , seem what the CCD camp is doing.Don't worry Ian, everything is free down here.LOL

    The TAX PAYER who's that.

    Keith

  3. #43
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    >> also have a heavy equipment contruction rental bussiness.


    I hear you Keith!

    But thats not exactly what I was getting at. Throwing money to business to in response to disaster and giving money to industry for research and development are two different situations. My feeling between both are in favorable feelings.

    >>Ian, that's almost funny, I haven't seen any proof yet that proves anything.

    The fellows presenting the situation to beekeepers feel there is alot of proof to the CCD losses occurring.
    Weather or not the losses are due to some management practices, as you suggest, is still in the wash, but as far as the information they present to me, I would have to guess there is something more at play here.

    But all the same lines, I discuss the public with much the same feeling as you. But I am a little more focused on the pollination stresses and the extreme drought you experienced in alot of the country which leads into the hives nutritional problem , as being "probably" the central problem to the issue. And then perhaps after, pathogens taking the hives down.

    I dont relay an such nonsense that I am hearing hear there and everywhere.

    The public knows about this issue. They all seem to know about it, and they are all asking questions. Out right dismissal of the problem isnt going to satisfy their questions. I think when we as beekeepers are relaying information back to the public on this issue, we have to be as specific as possible, with what we have gathered to be the situation. And hold off the rumours up till the people working on the diagnosis of CCD get some definite details out.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  4. #44
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    keith sezs:
    also have a heavy equipment contruction rental bussiness.

    tecumseh replies:
    allllll... ok.... now I get it. so may I presume keith that you are not dependent on your bees for your primary income?

    just so that you do know keith. your business has been extensively subsidized since the days of ronnie ray-gun as federal monies have been shifted from social programs (which typically subsidize communities with large population typically in the ne) to military program (which typically subsidize communities which builds military hardware and provides military services typically in the south and southwest). in the same period of time while you were being lavished with federal subsidy monies the budgets for the nsf and other federal research programs have been cut to the quick. so why should I be surprise that the problem is difficult to identify?

    then of course there is that federally subsidized housing money that so obviously benefits the construction folks.... and I could go on and on... but why do I get the feeling that keith is quick to wag a finger at others that benefit from federal monies (for good reason or bad) but is totally unaware of the benefits that he receives? human nature?

    and the idea keith that you can figure out what kind of hive management is taking place in the inside of the hive by whether the hive body is painted or not stikes me as being extremely naive or lacking exposure to commercial bee keepers. these 'predictors' do provide some insight into the firms profits and the residual available for the time and money required to perform basic year to year maintance. even a casual glance at the yearly cumulative number of hives in commercial hands should suggest to you why frames have not been replaced and hive bodies not painted.

  5. #45
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    tecumseh sezs,
    allllll... ok.... now I get it. so may I presume keith that you are not dependent on your bees for your primary income?

    Keith replies,
    No ,the bees, per man hour, do the best. "presume" bad idea.

    tecumseh sezs,
    just so that you do know keith. your business has been extensively subsidized since the days of ronnie ray-gun as federal monies have been shifted from social programs (which typically subsidize communities with large population typically in the ne) to military program (which typically subsidize communities which builds military hardware and provides military services typically in the south and southwest). in the same period of time while you were being lavished with federal subsidy monies the budgets for the nsf and other federal research programs have been cut to the quick. so why should I be surprise that the problem is difficult to identify?

    Keith replies,
    wrong again, maybe if I was a black woman, maybe.
    Now days, here in Calif, the developer has to provide section 8 housing by a state mandate.

    tecumesh sezs,
    then of course there is that federally subsidized housing money that so obviously benefits the construction folks.... and I could go on and on... but why do I get the feeling that keith is quick to wag a finger at others that benefit from federal monies (for good reason or bad) but is totally unaware of the benefits that he receives? human nature?

    Keith replies,
    Wrong again

    tecumesh sezs,
    extremely naive or lacking exposure to commercial bee keepers. these 'predictors' do provide some insight into the firms profits and the residual available for the time and money required to perform basic year to year maintance. even a casual glance at the yearly cumulative number of hives in commercial hands should suggest to you why frames have not been replaced and hive bodies not painted.[/QUOTE]

    Keith replies,

    Right now I have over two thousand hives in management,
    average last five years 3,000 at this time. To what, might I ask, constitutes a commercial keeper?

    I , BTW started out with two hives, and alot of mistakes.LOL

    Tecumesh, federally subsidized bee programs are supposed to be a safty net, not for a CCD or CPD (cell phone disorder). The bee industry does not need any help with hive numbers at this time. Just look at the almond pollintion shortage, they had plenty of bees.

    Keith

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Bluegrass,

    very well said,

    All the news I have read here in Calif, is poor keepers crying foul. Some here on Bee source have said that I'm irresponsable by not buying into this ccd.

    We will see how much is fluff. There are some new methods of detection so we will have to wait and see.
    Keith

    Jefshear says:
    You know, one thing I have noticed regarding the CCD threads on this forum is that the guys/gals that are most affected by CCD don't appear to share the details of their troubles. I am sure there are lots of reasons for this, one of which is time. I watched that Map someone set up for people to report CCD for MONTHS and know one with significant losses identified them on it all the while I was looking. I read the CCD threads on a somewhat regular basis and there was a whole lot of speculation and again, very little cold hard facts about how many keepers, hives, severity, etc.

    Read the above quote and the rest of Kieth's posts on this thread. You will understand why you don't hear much from those of us "poor beekeepers" who have taken losses. There is always some AH who got lucky that will try to boost his ego by bad mouthing the ones who got nailed. I've been around long enough to see a lot of those types eat crow, and Kieth, if you find you get hit next spring I've got a good recipe for crow and I'll be glad to cook it for you.

    I know at least one beek who lost 100 out of 125 a year ago with the same kind of symptoms we see in CCD. He won't report it because he doesn't want to believe it is the same thing. I believe he also doesn't want fingers pointed at him as a "poor beekeeper"He bought 150 packages last spring and started over and thinks that because they all did well the first year he has it beat. I doubt it since all my losses were in well established hives with 100 percent new queens introduced in the fall, but they all had comb that had been in the almonds. I had a few losses that didn't fit the pattern but they could be pinned down to the normal winter loss problems and were in about the same percentage of the total as I expect to lose over winter. Since I am retired and can't work more than 50 colonies or so I have the ability to keep trying, but some of these "poor beekers" with multi generations of experience and knowledge have lost more money this year than a heart surgeon could earn.

    I agree that the media hype is overdone, but maybe it will make Joe Sixpack more reluctant to grab a can of raid every time he sees a bee swarm or feral hive. That alone would be a benifit that would outweigh any harm done by the media in my way of thinking.
    doug

  7. #47
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    Sierrabees,

    Great post. I'm glad to see someone besides myself that is getting tired of seeing the bad-mouthing going on here about "poor beekeepers". Talking trash on other beekeepers won't solve the problems in the hives. As you said, some of those beeks who have been hit the hardest are reluctant to say anything for fear of being negatively branded by those who think they know everything about everything. Also, I believe some of them are in a state of denial to believe that it actually happened to them.

    If it's determined that nothing more than bad management is the cause of CCD, then we will all benefit from the media attention and the research that is being done right now on this problem. Not that I believe that CCD is all a figment of someone's over active imagiination as some here seem to think. I believe that it is a real malady being suffered by a widely disbursed group of beeks using a variety of management practices. Beeks that I've known for years that practice some of the latest techniques recommended in the most popular mags.

    Unfortunately, some people have little faith in their brothers, and believe that they are better than them simply because they have been lucky so far and have managed to stay a step ahead of the problem.

    Sierrabees, good luck in the recovery of your bees, and here's hoping that I remain lucky as far as CCD goes.
    Be Yourself, Everyone Else Is Taken!

  8. #48
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    VERY nicely said carbide (see we can agree on something). I wish I had writ 'that' myself.

    meanwhile Keith is digging the hole of denial a bit deeper and like I suggested quite unaware of the massive subsidy he recieves via the construction trade. he quite obviously feels entitled to this handout of public monies. shucking the blame onto the backs of poor black women certainly sounds like keith is not only largely in denial but also marginally a racist (at least that is the impression I am left with) plus a sexist, plus a purveyor of class warfare.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbide View Post
    ...If it's determined that nothing more than bad management is the cause of CCD...
    ...then we are no different from the rest of humankind. Our history is rife with examples of humans using "the latest technology" and "best practices" with the best of intentions, when it turned out, years later, to be a horrible mistake. One need only look back at: dumping sewage in the rivers to make it go away, burying radioactive waste, DDT, Thalidomide, etc., etc.
    “The keeping of bees is like the direction of sunbeams.” -Henry David Thoreau

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by tecumseh View Post
    VERY nicely said carbide (see we can agree on something).
    Whew, I'd better be careful, wouldn't want that to happen too often. They might start calling me an old, cantankerous, pig-headed fool too. To my face, that is, not behind my back anymore.
    Be Yourself, Everyone Else Is Taken!

  11. #51
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    Tecumseh sezs,
    meanwhile Keith is digging the hole of denial

    keith replies , no thats the CCD camp, do you hear me whining at all?


    Tecumseh sezs,
    quite massive subsidy he recieves via the construction trade.

    Keith replies,
    sure would like to know where that is? Tecumseh, to make loose cannon statement like this makes me wonder. You dont even know what I rent, but you somehow know that I recieved subsidy.

    Tecumseh sezs,
    but also marginally a racist (at least that is the impression I am left with) plus a sexist, plus a purveyor of class warfare

    Keith replies,
    A Black woman owned constrution firm qualifies as a MINORITY contractor. This is a major advantage when bidding, She does NOT have to be the lowest bidder to be awarded the job.
    Does this mean she's a bad contractor, NO, does this mean she's not qualifed, NO. What I'm saying is we are not all treated equal, the lowest bid does not mean you will be awarded the job. Dont take this out of context, I'm not complaining, just stating the facts.

    Speaking of the facts, I hope the CCD camp sticks to just that, cell phones and who knows what's next does this industry no good.

    I look at the facts when approching a problem, I do not look any further than to solve the problem. Feelings, hardships and monatary value loss all play into this media over dramazation, but solve nothing. This is how we got to this point and why I say many of us that are good managers are doing fine, you won't hear this in the news.

    Luck has nothing to do with CCD.
    BTW, eating crow, sounds petty.

    I'm looking between fact and faction here.

    Keith

  12. #52
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    Let me see if I've go this straight:

    You don't believe in CCD, Keith? You don't think the symptoms described are real, you don't think CCD (or whatever you wish to call it) is really killing hives, or you don't think hives are dying off from the symptoms called "CCD" collectively?

    Seems to me, if a beekeeper had 100 hives last summer and the bees in 90 of them "disappeared" last fall, the fact is that he lost 90 of his hives.

    The "why" of their deaths may be unknown, but their deaths are known. Or, are you saying that beekeepers are lying about how many hives they've lost?

  13. #53
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    Kieth says: I'm looking between fact and faction here.

    I don't think so. It looks to me like you are creating your own facts.

    Since CCD is only poor beekeeping, can you explain why some of the best brains in the field of beekeeping research are taking time away from their primary studies and traveling all over the country to try to get to the bottom of it when all they have to do is give you a call and you can clear it all up with one phrase? "poor beekeeping" I guess these people must be just stupid or like to waste their time.
    doug

  14. #54
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    Kieck wrote,

    > The "why" of their deaths may be unknown, but their deaths are known. Or, are you saying that beekeepers are lying about how many hives they've lost?[/QUOTE]

    Kieck, loss of hives, I think are true, theirs no reason to make false statments.

    There was a graph, I saw some time ago that showed winter losses verses weather conditions the previous year.
    The graph showed when favorable wheather conditions existed the bees winter losses were reduced.The same when they had poor wheather condition thier losses rose.
    Keith

  15. #55
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    I've seen similar comparison, Keith. What seems odd about the whole CCD thing, though, is that many of the losses occured in the fall, before typical winter losses would appear. And, the symptoms don't seem like winter losses, to me.

    When I lose hives over the winter to "typical" winter losses, I find big piles of dead bees in the hives and -- usually -- low or no stores, not hives empty of bees with lots of stores.

    I dunno. I haven't experienced CCD. I haven't even seen any examples first-hand of hives lost to CCD. But it sounds very real to me.

    By the way, I don't put any confidence in the "cell phone" or "new pesticides" or "GM crops" or other theories for CCD. But I know people who insist that all cancers are simply states of mind, too, and I still believe cancer can be caused by very real and measurable factors.

  16. #56
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    Sierrabee wrote,

    Since CCD is only poor beekeeping, can you explain why some of the best brains in the field of beekeeping research are taking time away from their primary studies and traveling all over the country to try to get to the bottom of it when all they have to do is give you a call and you can clear it all up with one phrase? "poor beekeeping" I guess these people must be just stupid or like to waste their time.[/QUOTE]

    Keith replies,
    First of all, how many researchers are there, five, ten ??
    primary studies you say, this is not?? what are they suppose to be studying. You act as if they are being taken away from some life threating study here.
    This does not make any since to me, according to CCD this is life threating.
    You have a way of taking things out of context and adding where needed.

    Keith

  17. #57
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    carbide sezs:
    Whew, I'd better be careful, wouldn't want that to happen too often. They might start calling me an old, cantankerous, pig-headed fool too. To my face, that is, not behind my back anymore.

    tecumseh replies:
    you seem to suggest carbide that 'they' have little capacity to inact rhetorically and even less spine.

  18. #58
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    keith sezs:
    sure would like to know where that is? Tecumseh, to make loose cannon statement like this makes me wonder. You dont even know what I rent, but you somehow know that I recieved subsidy.

    tecumseh lobs another round:
    well keith subsidies are generally considered to be either direct or indirect in nature. the devolper that signs on for a federally subsidized loan and then lets property out to poor families (they might just be black, white, hispanic or asian) receives a direct subsidy generally in the form of lower interest and a regular check from the government in the form of rent subsidy. all the other folks (rental equipment operation thru common labors) that participate in these construction project have in fact received indirect subsidies to there income.

    it is never a large surprise to discover that some folks are quite unaware of the benefits that they receive in this indirect fashion. matter of fact it is (in my experience) quite common that many of the folks that acquire direct subsidy tend to 'overlook' their subsidy also.

    and now back to topic:
    I personally believe that the media has hyped this issue in one way or another... that kind of what they do. this generates interest, expands audience and the bottom line. if 'they' did not do this then one would expect the folks running these media outlets to be promptly replace for not doing their jobs in an adequate fashion. it is 'every citizens' duty to be able to distinquish the fluff from the non trivial.

  19. #59
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    it is never a large surprise to discover that some folks are quite unaware of the benefits that they receive in this indirect fashion. -tecumseh
    I tried to point out on a thread in "Tailgater" a while ago, when several were arguing that "organic farmers do not receive the subsidies that other farmers get," that even tax breaks are a form of subsidy. At least some people reject that "notion" completely.

    To get back to the topic, too, the media has perhaps "hyped" the issue of CCD. I think beekeeping has gotten more press this year than in most previous years. And the news stories have imparted the sense, among some people at least, that all honey bees are likely to die in the U.S. because of CCD.

    However, the "drama" and "hype" seem to be greater among beekeepers than among non-beekeepers. I have people ask me (fairly regularly), "Have your bees been affected by CCD? What's the deal with it, anyway?"

    The "we-need-help-to-do-something-right-now" and "CCD-must-be-caused-by-(fill in the blank)" attitudes seem to crop up among beekeepers.

  20. #60
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    Kieck wrote:

    However, the "drama" and "hype" seem to be greater among beekeepers than among non-beekeepers. I have people ask me (fairly regularly), "Have your bees been affected by CCD? What's the deal with it, anyway?"

    The "we-need-help-to-do-something-right-now" and "CCD-must-be-caused-by-(fill in the blank)" attitudes seem to crop up among beekeepers.[/QUOTE]

    Kieck, very well said.

    Tecumseh, I will try one more time.
    If we are mandated by the state (to get tenative mapping) to provide low income housing lots, how do we benefit. We do not build homes, we do not sell homes, we do not rent homes, so if you could stay on topic and explain for me, that would be great. This is something I know a little about and so for you haven't answered my question. You have made some previous loose cannon statments, sounds good if you don't know the laws.
    Keith

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