Possible Problem

**Joseph Clemens** · 04-03-2007, 11:36 AM

A few days ago I removed the queen from a fairly fiesty hive - they needed it. I had two purposes in mind when doing this, 1) mellow them with a new queen, 2) use the hive as a cell maker, using brood from my "breeder" queen. I waited 3 days then carefully destroyed all queen cells that they had started, then gave them a frame of eggs and young larva from my breeder. This morning I verified that they had several nice queen cells started from the breeder brood. I closed them up and continued working the rest of the yard. Just as I was closing up the last colony I had open, I heard a loud hum, like the sound of a swarm, so I looked around, none of my colonies were swarming. I stepped out of the shade cloth enclosure that surrounds my hives, and still did not see the swarm. But, as soon as I had stepped back into the enclosure I saw them coming in from the North. The swarm was coming from outside my apiary. I have lots of idle equipment piled just adjacent to the apiary, many with combs, none are sealed tight. Often swarms are captured this way. But not today, this swarm zeroed in on my queenless cell maker, many just flew right into the entrance, quite a few formed a cluster on one end of the bottom board, but within 10 minutes all had entered the hive, no fighting, no muss, no fuss. Except for my queen cell maker, I'm afraid the swarm queen will destroy my carefully nurtured queen cells.

**Dan Williamson** · 04-03-2007, 11:42 AM

sounds like AHB swarm to me....

**George Fergusson** · 04-03-2007, 11:42 AM

Joe, it sure sounds like your queenless cell builder has been taken over by an africanized honey bee swarm. I've read about it happening. You're in the right neck of the woods.

**Joseph Clemens** · 04-03-2007, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Dan Williamson

sounds like AHB swarm to me....

Originally Posted by George Fergusson

Joe, it sure sounds like your queenless cell builder has been taken over by an africanized honey bee swarm. I've read about it happening. You're in the right neck of the woods.

Quite possibly so. I too had read about this happening, but it was said that they would take over queenright colonies. I was skeptical that this could actually happen, but I've seen it for myself. However, I still have some skepticism as to their being AHB, perhaps most Apis mellifera also exhibit this trait. It would be something difficult to verify, under most circumstances.

Either way, I will keep a close eye on them, see how it goes. Perhaps they will be better mannered, than they were before. And at least I have another cell builder making a batch of cells.

**Korny's Korner** · 04-03-2007, 12:30 PM

Northern beek and this sounds scarry

No expert, but maybe you could , if queen cells are okay, shake bees off frames move them to the top of a queen right hive. Put a queen excluder on, nurse bees will move up to care for brood . Then put false bottom on after nurse bees are up. I would probably destroy the swarm. I believe that is what is recommended for swarms of unknown origin in africanized areas.

Then you can start again with your plan

Korny

**Joseph Clemens** · 04-03-2007, 12:58 PM

Well, I've been keeping bees, here in "AHB country", for most of a decade now. Some colonies get ornery, some are mellow. When I don't like their manners, I change their queen. Many of my colonies were wild swarms. I didn't even requeen them with any commercial stock until 2 years ago. I've dealt with bees, earlier, in other parts of the country, much before AHB, that had manners much worse than any I've seen here in AHB territory.

**Aspera** · 04-03-2007, 04:31 PM

That must have been quite a sight to behold...I'm a little jealous actually. Its even more amazing that you were there at precisely the right time.

**George Fergusson** · 04-03-2007, 05:19 PM

>However, I still have some skepticism as to their being AHB, perhaps most Apis mellifera also exhibit this trait.

Not that I've ever heard about or read about. European honey bees will take over abandoned/empty equipment, but hostile colony usurpation seems to be a behavior that only africanized honey bees exhibit.

I'm glad you're cool with it Joe, I'd be sweating bullets

**Dan Williamson** · 04-04-2007, 08:09 AM

Just saw a slideshow presentation from one of the bee labs back in Feb. It showed multiple AHB invasion swarms. One of the point being made was this:

They showed the swarms and then some small clusters after alot of bees had entered the hive..... These small clusters (some very small, some larger) still on the outside. They had taken these clusters and analyzed them... They found queens inside. The invasion swarms were protecting the queen and in some cases multiple queens in the event of defense by the initial colony.

**Joseph Clemens** · 04-05-2007, 04:13 AM

Update:
Wednesday morning I gave the formerly queenless cell builder colony a careful examination. The queen cells were still there -- yah, so I moved them to a different cell builder colony. The population was, at least, double what it had been -- the native population of this hive were dark bees, now there were a large percentage of the Italian yellow bees. And, finally I saw the new queen, she hadn't begun laying yet, but appeared to be sizing up nicely -- with the completely fuzzy thorax of a recent virgin.
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As George Fergusson and Dan Williamson have mentioned, these are quite possibly AHB. If this is typical behavior for AHB, then, how can we expect to keep them out. They could take over anywhere they wished, and how would we even know? Since "hot" colonies are routinely requeened or destroyed, we may soon see calm AHB everywhere they wish to be, maybe we already do.

Two years ago, I began requeening with Cordovan Italian, partially in an attempt to monitor the genetics of my bees. At least while the colonies queen continues to exhibit the golden Cordovan trait, and her workers do too, then there is most likely no AHB blood in them. It is said that the Cordovan trait can be bred into any strain/race of honeybee, but my hope if this happens (Cordovan gets bred into AHB), that better traits are preserved -vs- any poor AHB traits (word is that few, if any, traits are tied to the Cordovan genes). Time will tell.

If I happen to create Cordovan AHB, then I hope, that they retain one good trait, that would be calmness, especially calmness on the combs.

**peggjam** · 04-05-2007, 04:56 AM

It's interesting that she didn't kill off the queen cells.....guess you got lucky in that respect. I haven't heard of EHB desplaying any take over traits, but it could be possible

.

**George Fergusson** · 04-05-2007, 05:24 AM

Nest usurpation by AHB is pretty well documented:

One means by which the AHB may supplant the EHB is through colony parasitism. Previous reports have shown that small AHB swarms, no bigger than the size of a softball, can cluster near the entrance of a colony. Over a few days, the workers in the swarm can overcome the defenses of the hive and usurp the resident queen, leaving the colony wide open for the AHB queen in the swarm to take over. Such a coup d’etat can change an EHB colony into an AHB colony literally overnight.

A recent study was published by UNC-Charlotte Professor Stanley Schneider and his collaborators in Arizona at the USDA Carl Hayden Honey Bee Research Facility that addresses this issue. They placed many five-frame nucleus hives in their bee yard, all headed by EHB cordovan queens, and they tracked the progress of these hives over the course of two years. They performed weekly or bi-weekly inspections of each colony and rated its strength (according to the amount of brood and number of adult bees) and queen status (thriving, weak, queenless, or superseded). They witnessed dozens of invading parasitic AHB swarms and the resultant usurpation of the EHB queen.

They found an average take-over rate of 21% over the course of the study, much higher than previously thought. Moreover, there was a seasonal effect of this process, such that most swarms were seen during the months of October, November, and December. There was also a highly significant effect of EHB colony status on the likelihood of being parasitized. Thriving colonies had only a 1.6% chance of being usurped each month, but weak and queenless colonies had a 2.2% and 12.8% chance of usurpation, respectively. These results suggest that the parasitic AHB swarms are somehow able to locate colonies with weakened defenses and take them over at a surprisingly high rate.

Knowing how this usurpation process works may enable beekeepers to take certain measures to minimize how often their colonies can be taken over by Africanized bees. It is for this reason, and many others like it, that make beekeepers the first line of defense against the AHB.

Reference
Schneider, S. S.,T. Deeby, D. C. Gilley, and G. DeGrandi-Hoffman. (2004). Seasonal nest usurpation of European colonies by African swarms in Arizona, USA. Insectes Sociaux, 51: 359–364.

**stangardener** · 04-05-2007, 12:06 PM

i like the posters attitude about ahb. i had a similar swarm experiance last fall. i had just hived a small swarm and another one came out of the blue and joined into the same hive. i'd brought the first swarm in from eight miles away and the second swarm had a much darker queen than my stock. i thought it was odd so i posted the experiance on the "organic" beekeepers site. the knowledgable site host from arizona didn't mention ahb or think it was that strange of an occurance. after this experiance i read about ahb's invasion tactics. if i had read about it before this experiance i probably would have considered an ahb invasion as being likely. ehb do join with other colonys.

**Albert** · 04-05-2007, 06:43 PM

Evening all,

I'm not looking forward to dealing with AHBs when and if they get to my apiary. But I am expecting it sooner or later. No more bare handed, headed or uncovered body parts anymore should that occur.

If I am correct, the USDA brought in several AHBs many, many, years ago and distributed them throughout the USA. The genetics appeared to be diluted as time went on.

I suppose that as time goes on and beeks squash the heads of over-aggresive queens, the relative aggression will subside.

As a precaution I have been, week by week, one hive at a time, moving my hives to the back of my property away from my home, the kids, and animals. I close the hive up at night, put it in deep shade, and move it 48 hours later. So they spend two whole nights and part of the next day locked up. That late afternoon I open it up, (an entrance about 3/4 inch high by an inch wide), and let them be. They don't seem to go back to the old hive location as far as I can tell.

I've been trying real hard to learn about queen breeding. I read every post and all the references I can find. I suppose a lot of us are probably thinking the same as I: Better be ready!

Regards,
Albert

**George Fergusson** · 04-05-2007, 07:10 PM

>ehb do join with other colonys.

Can you or anyone else substantiate this claim? It is a behavior that I've never heard associated with EHB.

**Dan Williamson** · 04-05-2007, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by stangardener

ehb do join with other colonys.

I have heard of ehb swarms co-mingling with other swarms.

I haven't heard much if anything about an ehb swarm moving in and taking over a currently occupied hive queenless or not. I'm not going to say its impossible but given the location of of Joseph and the AHB propensity to invade weaker or disadvantaged (ie cell builder in this case) colonies I'd say its highly likely AHB.

I would prefer to assume AHB and be proven wrong in this scenario.

**BULLSEYE BILL** · 04-05-2007, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by George Fergusson

>
I'm glad you're cool with it Joe, I'd be sweating bullets

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I'd pinch the invading queen and use one of those queen cells in the cell builder to replace her.

**stangardener** · 04-06-2007, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by George Fergusson

>ehb do join with other colonys.

Can you or anyone else substantiate this claim? It is a behavior that I've never heard associated with EHB.

i won't try to substantiate anything but if you go to message numbers 28643 and 28753 of yahoos organicbeekeepers site you can read a description of a neat swarm experiance. message number 28782 is an answer to my question pertaining to whether a swarm would use an occupied hive. experiancing is beliveing

**George Fergusson** · 04-06-2007, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by stangardener

i won't try to substantiate anything but if you go to message numbers 28643 and 28753 of yahoos organicbeekeepers site you can read a description of a neat swarm experiance. message number 28782 is an answer to my question pertaining to whether a swarm would use an occupied hive. experiancing is beliveing

I used to subscribe to Organicbeekeepers. I signed off for a variety of reasons none of which I will elaborate on here. I am well aware of the list's attitude towards and opinions about AHB. I have nothing but respect and admiration for Dee, but she has categorically denied the practical existence of AHB in Arizone, let alone in any other state and the very likely presence of africanized genes in her colonies. It's a ludicrous assertion in my opinion- it's denying reality. I can understand and appreciate that she's a bit sensitive on the issue, perhaps even overly defensive

That said, deluding ourselves is a God-given inalienable right and certainly, people keeping bees in areas with a feral population of africanized honey bees have little choice but to either quit beekeeping, or deal with the situation as best they can- requeening exceedingly hot hives, keeping smaller colonies, and generally practicing management practices associated with running potentially hot hives- isolation, etc. If people want to downplay the threat of AHB and their impact on beekeeping, fine, but don't be telling me that they "don't exist" and don't be telling me that EHB routinely go around usurping other EHB colonies- not without documented proof.