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  1. #61
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    RSUCHAN and Jim

    You do not have even a chance to deny my previous statement:
    "There are many studies that show differences in the immune systems of wild animals (and birds) and domesticated animals (and birds), because wild animals feed on natural food. Also, there are many studies that show that children who are breast-fed have stronger immune systems and are healthier than children who were fed with formula milk."

    Boris
    Last edited by Boris; 03-12-2007 at 02:12 PM.

  2. #62
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    > 1. Did you read this info carefully?

    Yes, I read it all, and that's why I pointed out that your central
    contentions had already been ruled out (both "feed" and
    "miticides") and the level of certainty was high enough about
    this issue to make the point part of an "FAQ".

    > "...another possibility is that neonicotinoids are another factor..."

    While this has not yet been ruled out, it is hard to believe, as
    prior incidents blamed on neonicotinoids did not present the
    symptoms seen in "CCD". It also has nothing to do with the
    claims with which you started this thread, as neonicotinoids
    would be a "pesticide kill", not a result of beekeeper miticide
    use.

    > 2. Do you use any chemicals?

    I'm not going to get drawn any further into this meandering discussion,
    as the FAQ I cited rules out any mite treatments as being connected
    with CCD, so my practices are irrelevant. If it helps you to feel any
    better, I was one of the first guys to implement powdered sugar
    treatments in a production environment.

    > 3. Do you use any kind of syrup for autumn and spring feeding?


    Sure, but again, I'm not going to get drawn any further into this
    meandering discussion, as the FAQ I cited rules out "feed" as well.

    Therefore, neither of the items you brought up when you started
    this thread have anything to do with CCD.

  3. #63
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    Jim,

    Can you deny my previous statement (for RSUCHAN and you)?
    If not - my discussion with you is useless.

    Boris
    Last edited by Boris; 03-12-2007 at 02:23 PM.

  4. #64
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    I don't want to insert myself into any debate between Jim Fischer and Boris, but I'd like some more information at this point.

    There are many studies that show differences in the immune systems of wild animals (and birds) and domesticated animals (and birds), because wild animals feed on natural food. . . . -Boris
    Can you provide the references in primary literature for these studies, Boris? I've read some of the studies comparing breast milk and formula, but I don't recall ever seeing any studies published in peer-reviewed literature about compromised immune systems in domesticated animals (birds, as well as insects, are "animals," too) because of the diets they consume.

  5. #65
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    >>>studies that show differences in the immune systems of wild animals (and birds) and domesticated animals (and birds), because wild animals feed on natural food.<<<
    I would be interested in reading these studies. Where were they conducted? Do you have a link to them? If not, can you tell me where to find them?
    Sheri

  6. #66
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    Kieck and Sheri,

    The title of the study is “Immune system of feral and domestic swine.”
    But this is a bee-forum and I will add more info for you on my new page.


    “Even with 30 colonies fed exactly the same there would be differences in mortality rates over winter.”
    Sheri,
    Your statement is incorrect, because I did not say that 30 colonies are enough.
    My statements:” Scientists from universities (!!!)…And of course, as you pointed out, we would have to obtain results of my experiments from different locations.”


    Boris
    Last edited by Boris; 03-13-2007 at 07:14 AM.

  7. #67
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    80

    Default Study????

    So were is the bee study???

  8. #68
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    “So were is the bee study???”

    Aspera's statement: “With regard to nutrition, most domesticated animals in the U.S. have there nutrition requirements defined and revised every 15 years or so by the national research council (NRC). Honeybees are generally not considered economically important enough to have this done. Lets face it, 1/2 of all the colonies in the world could die and most governments wouldn't even bat an eye. We have so much money going to Iraq, there aren't even grants available for human nutrition research (!!!) Right now I think that most CCD research money is coming from state budgets, not the feds.”

    Boris

  9. #69
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    I agree with the first part of Sheri’s statement, “Most changes in commercial beekeeping have been merely chemical bandits trying to ward off problems”, but I do not agree with the last part of her statement: “for which no other realistic option is available. ”

    There are some practical solutions:
    - Varroa Screened Bottom Board;
    - Drone Cell Foundations;
    - ARS Russians bees, SMR/VSH bees, ARS Russian crossed with SMR/VSH
    More details are here: http://www.beebehavior.com/bee_enemies.php

    I do not use syrup and I NEVER used any chemicals. My ARS Russian bees are healthy.
    More importantly, at the present time there are no reports about "massive deaths of ARS Russian colonies.”

    Boris
    Last edited by Boris; 03-13-2007 at 03:01 PM.

  10. #70
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    These are the type discussions that make everything go round and round. To even suggest that something as SBB or drone cell is a real solution to the discussion at hand...that being CCD, is outright wrong.

    Most don't even know what the cause is, let alone corrective action. I recently had to hear the "promotion" of a local club president russian bees, and he suggests that his russians alone, since they don't have CCD, are superior for this fact alone. Pure HOGWASH!

    I have been suggesting that nutrition, suppressed immune systems, low bee protein, and stress are all playing a part. (Which the FAQ site Jim F. referenced by Penn State, hits upon 3 out of 4. The only one missing in the ongoing examination is suppressed immune systems) But does that mean all migratory beekeeper are going to have CCD colonies? No. And does that mean anyone who has no CCD can wrongly suggest that they have somehow immune bees to CCD or superior stock in any way? No!

    Boris, your crossover theories and suggestions from one fact or set of circumstances, and applying them to something altogether different is quite amazing, to say it politely. But let me say, its wrong just the same.

  11. #71
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    BjornBee,
    Did you read my statement carefully?

    "The current problem can be divided into two levels: 1) The immune systems of many bee colonies are weakened; 2) A virus, a disease or another unknown problem is affecting colonies with weakened systems.
    I think that our discussion about the second level of the current massive dying is not productive. Sooner or later, bee scientists will find the problem."

    But there are some real solutions for the first level of the current problem. And I prefer to talk about this level.


    Boris
    Last edited by Boris; 03-13-2007 at 02:58 PM.

  12. #72
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    Boris, yes I read your statement. Unfortunately, my comments on the last post are true in regards to more than just your last comment at hand....

  13. #73
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    . . .The immune systems of many bee colonies are weakened. . . . -Boris
    Any data to back this up, or is this just speculation? How has it been determined that the immune systems of bee colonies are weakened, rather than bees contracting a different pathogen that they're not capable of fighting off?

  14. #74
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    "Any data to back this up"

    Kieck,
    1. I will answer your question on my new web-page.
    2. But for now, do you agree that we have to try to use the reasonable solutions I posted above to fight the problems?

    Boris
    Last edited by Boris; 03-13-2007 at 02:57 PM.

  15. #75
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    I look forward to reading the studies that back up your statements, Boris.

    I assume you're talking about these "reasonable solutions?"

    There are some real solutions:
    - Varroa Screened Bottom Board;
    - Drone Cell Foundations;
    - ARS Russians bees, SMR/VSH bees, ARS Russian crossed with SMR/VSH
    First, I doubt screened bottom board have that much effect on CCD. After all, as others have pointed out, SBB have varying effects even on Varroa, depending on the local climatic conditions.

    Drone cell foundations? How would those help?

    ARS Russian bees? I'm assuming you're really talking about "pure Russians," and include ARS (Agricultural Research Service, a branch of the United States Department of Agriculture) just to demonstrate that the bees are "pedigreed," so to speak.

    You asked for any reports of Russian bees collapsing -- I'll ask the other way: does any evidence exist that Russian/SMR/VSH bees are LESS prone to CCD, or have avoided CCD entirely?

    What you're proposing as reasonable solutions sound like Varroa control methods. Are you convinced that CCD is somehow linked to Varroa? Do you have any evidence to back that up?

  16. #76

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    There are initial reports of CCD being found in Hawai. But no varroa mites.

  17. #77
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    Kieck,

    Please read "How to fight against Varroa Mites without chemicals" part of my webpage: http://www.beebehavior.com/bee_enemies.php
    1. My main point is that you have to have healthy colonies to be prepared for new viruses or other problems (like #4).
    2. My second point is that your colonies will be weak if you use syrup and chemicals.
    3. I will ask for permission to post the official reply to my request regarding the current situation with ARS Russian colonies (as I did for my previous theme):
    http://www.beebehavior.com/global_wa...e_behavior.php
    4. This is a fact: "Apiaries in Webb, Mississippi in winter of 2000 had an opportunity to witness the Russian bees' durability thanks to a harsh winter. Of his1,500 domestic colonies, 1,200 to 1,400 were lost, whereas of his 2,000 Russian-bred colonies, only 2 didn't survive."
    (USDA web site)
    5. "Charlie has decided not to treat these colonies for varroa saying "if they die, we don’t want them". This will greatly benefit the selection program but will cause Charlie to lose some colonies." More details are here: http://www.beebehavior.com/key_players.php


    Boris
    Last edited by Boris; 03-13-2007 at 04:51 PM.

  18. #78
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    I understand that previously weakened colonies may be more susceptible to diseases and/or parasites. However, excessive Varroa loads -- as far as I've read -- have not be noted among any of the colonies that have collapsed from CCD. To me, that suggests that the bees that have been lost to CCD are not any more stressed by Varroa than the colonies that are still alive.

    In other words, Varroa seems to be one of the few factors that has largely been ruled out.

    On the other hand, if Varroa are serving as vectors of a new or different disease, even small numbers of Varroa may have profound impacts.

    As far as the "ARS Russian," I was simply trying to determine whether you were, in fact, simply referring to "pure" Russian bees, especially those obtained directly from the USDA. Are "ARS Russians" superior to "pure Russians" from other sources? Why?

    Nothing official here, but am I reading between the lines correctly? Are you really saying that colonies from Russian stock obtained directly from the USDA have so far been unaffected by CCD entirely?

  19. #79
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    "Nothing official here, but am I reading between the lines correctly? Are you really saying that colonies from Russian stock obtained directly from the USDA have so far been unaffected by CCD entirely?"

    Kieck,
    Please wait until I receive permission from the officials who provided this information to me.

    Boris

  20. #80
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    > There are initial reports of CCD being found in Hawai.
    > But no varroa mites.

    1) Where (which island[s])?

    2) Who reported this?
    2a) The person who lost the hives?
    2b) A 3rd party in Hawaii?
    2c) Someone on the mainland?

    3) Can anyone verify the specific symptoms seen in Hawaii
    against the MAAREC list of "common symptoms"?

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