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  1. #1
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    Question

    I have heard that freezing a candle before burning makes it last longer.

    Is this a wives tale?
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  2. #2
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    Well, it clearly would be true that a candle
    fresh from the deep freeze would need to thaw
    out before any wax melted, thus slowing the
    initial burn rate a tiny, tiny bit... [img]smile.gif[/img]

    But let's get real - the delta between freezer
    temp (let's say 30F) and room temp (70F) is
    negligible (40F) as compared to the combustion
    temperature of a candle flame (1500F-1600F),
    so it really does not matter if the candle
    starts out at 30F or 70F, except that lighting the
    candle may be made slightly more difficult by
    the frozen state of the wax, and the lack of any
    serious "wicking" action.

    One thing that CAN happen is that the candle
    can freeze unevenly, and crack in the freezer.
    That would be a bummer, wouldn't it?

    ...and don't get me started about people who
    claim that they can make a better popover
    by placing the batter-filled pan in a COLD
    oven, rather than a pre-heated one... [img]smile.gif[/img]

  3. #3
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    Jim, you know if you keep destroying our urban myths we won't have anything left to believe in! (except the truth)

  4. #4
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    I don't know if it's true or not, but I know they sell long burning candles (made of parafin not beeswax) and the claim, if I remember it right, that it was something about the crystal structure of the wax in the candles that made it burn longer. Is it possible that freezing a candle causes some kind of crystalization? Certainly as comb ages it changes from very soft and mallable to very papery and brittle. What is that change from? Is it from some kind of crystalization? Is it from some kind of loss of oils in the wax? I don't know.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #5
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    > Is it possible that freezing a candle causes
    > some kind of crystalization?

    Sure, but "freezing" for wax happens at just
    below the melting point! If the wax melts
    at 120F, than the "freezing point" would be
    just slightly below 120F.

    This makes sense, as something is either liquid or
    solid, there really isn't a "slush" state between.

    There is a "super cooled liquid" stage for many
    materials, but that does not apply to the case of
    wax. Glass yes, wax no, paraffin no.

    Once wax or paraffin has solidified, subjecting
    it to colder temperatures is not going to somehow
    change the existing crystal structure formed at
    solidification any more than freezing a quartz
    crystal would somehow change its structure.

    Old brittle comb is simply "dried out" from air
    exposure. You can get the same result from
    leaving wax in a solar melter for about
    a month. You will notice a powdery residue
    on the surface of your bricks of wax.

    Now, there are "microcrystalline" paraffins, which
    (no big surprise) have smaller crystals, but this
    is a whole different petrochemical byproduct
    than the usual paraffin. They are added to alter
    the overall hardness of the paraffin end product.
    I have never heard anyone claim that they made a
    candle "burn longer".

    Most crystal structures are really a function of
    the material, not something that can be changed
    by heating or cooling. You have to do some very
    fancy chemistry to add the right items to steel to
    get "heat-treatable steel", which is about the
    closest example I can think of to a "crystal
    structure" that might be modified by temperature
    cycling.

    Bottom line, ounce per ounce, and inch per inch,
    pure beeswax candles burn longer than anything
    else, and even candles with some beeswax in them
    burn longer than pure paraffin candles.

    And nothing the petrochemical industry can do
    is going to change that. Lord only knows that
    they have tried. Bees just make a superior
    product. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  6. #6
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    >Sure, but "freezing" for wax happens at just
    below the melting point! If the wax melts
    at 120F, than the "freezing point" would be
    just slightly below 120F.

    Cooling metals when they are hot at different rates causes changes in the crystaline structure in the metal. By "freezing" I am simply refering to the original reference (the first post) to putting them in the freezer. But then I thought that was obvious.

    >This makes sense, as something is either liquid or solid, there really isn't a "slush" state between.

    You must have never driven in Nebraska in the winter.

    >Once wax or paraffin has solidified, subjecting
    it to colder temperatures is not going to somehow
    change the existing crystal structure formed at
    solidification any more than freezing a quartz
    crystal would somehow change its structure.

    I assume we are talking about rapidly cooling a candle in the freezer and this very well might change the crystaline structure.

    >Old brittle comb is simply "dried out" from air
    exposure. You can get the same result from
    leaving wax in a solar melter for about
    a month. You will notice a powdery residue
    on the surface of your bricks of wax.

    So what has "dried"? What has evaporated out of it? Why does it return to normal after I melt it?

    >Now, there are "microcrystalline" paraffins, which
    (no big surprise) have smaller crystals, but this
    is a whole different petrochemical byproduct
    than the usual paraffin. They are added to alter
    the overall hardness of the paraffin end product.
    I have never heard anyone claim that they made a
    candle "burn longer".

    You must not read camping catalogs.

    On this site:

    http://www.eliteelectrolysisnj.com/w...ar_profile.htm

    You'll find:

    "50-HOUR EMERGENCY CANDLES
    "High melt-point microcrystalline wax makes these long burning candles a must for emergencies. Nothing is more comforting than light on dark, stormy nights."
    Only $ 5.99"

    I've seen many other camping catalogs with the same claim for microcrystalline wax candles.

    >Most crystal structures are really a function of
    the material, not something that can be changed
    by heating or cooling.

    Steel, sugar syrup, honey, just to name three that we are all familar with, can have dramatically different crystaline structures depending on sudden, slow or specific changes in temperatures.

    > You have to do some very
    fancy chemistry to add the right items to steel to
    get "heat-treatable steel", which is about the
    closest example I can think of to a "crystal
    structure" that might be modified by temperature
    cycling.

    I've heat treated common nails and changed their hardness. It didn't take much chemistry. Just heating and sudden cooling. You can do it to brass too, but it works the opposite. Sudden cooling makes it soft and slow cooling makes it brittle and hard. No fancy chemistry there either.

    >Bottom line, ounce per ounce, and inch per inch,
    pure beeswax candles burn longer than anything
    else, and even candles with some beeswax in them
    burn longer than pure paraffin candles.

    The above are supposed to last 50 hours. I can't vouch for the 50 hours, but there's no beeswax in them.

    You are probably right that freezing a beeswax candle won't change the burning rate. But without some experimentation, I don't see how we can say for a fact that it won't.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  7. #7
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    Michael:

    You appear to be confusing your post-production
    application of heat to a specific heat-treated
    steel alloy with a general case. Yes, if you
    mess around with an alloy, you CAN soften or
    harden it, but only because it was made to be
    heat-treatable in the first place.

    > Steel, sugar syrup, honey, just to name three
    > that we are all familar with, can have
    > dramatically different crystaline structures
    > depending on sudden, slow or specific changes
    > in temperatures.

    The speed of the temperature change really
    does not impact any of the items listed.

    In steel, the "magic" is the alloys added.
    In sugar, the "magic" is the highest temperature
    reached during the heating ("soft-ball", "crack"
    "hard crack", et al).
    In honey, cystalization is driven by the amount
    of glucose in the honey (assuming, of course that
    you have not seeded it to deliberately make
    "creamed honey).

    > I've seen many other camping catalogs with the
    > same claim for microcrystalline wax candles.

    Well, if you'd rather believe a salesman who
    wants to separate you from your money, go ahead.
    While the "wax" used may in fact be "high melting
    point paraffin", the microcystalline version of
    the wax simply means that the candle is mechanically
    harder, which while being a good feature for
    being banged around in a backpack, has no effect
    on the melting point. Look up "microcrystalline
    wax" with google, if you'd like. You can use it
    to create anything from a napalm-like "gel" to
    a candle hard enough to use as a blunt instrument
    in a bar fight.

    Anyway, as I said before, the exact melting point
    of the wax makes little difference to the effect
    of the flame, which has a temperature about 10
    times that of any possible wax melting point.

    > But without some experimentation, I don't see
    > how we can say for a fact that it won't.

    I did the math in a prior post on this thread,
    so experiments are not really required when
    the math is so clear, but if you have the candles
    and the time, go for it!

    My money is on the beeswax every time, no matter
    what you do to the paraffin before the test.

  8. #8
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    Paraffin for candles comes at different melt temps, the highest for pure parrafin being in the 130-135 range somewhere. Various additives, either by the paraffin refiner or the candlemaker can raise or lower that. Sterene, or steric acid, gives you about 140 degrees, Polyboost 135 gives you (SURPRISE!) 135 degrees, and Polyboost 165 gives you 165 degrees.

    BubbaBob

  9. #9
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    Crystalline changes in solids after they have solidified:

    Lead alloys (any mixture of any amount of lead, tin and antimony that I've seen from wheel weights, 50/50 solder, linotype metal etc.) gets significantly harder when cooled after casting in water rather than being allowed to cool at room temperature. (Jim, I can give you "chapter and verse" from a Lyman cast bullet manual, but when I do such things you refer to it as "nonsense" and when I don't you refer to it as "anecdotal"). Iron and its alloys when cooled rapidly (when it is a solid also) get harder and more brittle. When cooled slowly gets softer. Copper and its alloys (bronze, brass etc. which are not very exact alloys) get softer when cooled rapidly. This is the extent of the metals that I have any real working knowledge of but all of them are affected by rapid cooling.

    All three of these same metals and their alloys are affected by working them. When brass is worked (stretched by firing a brass cartridge in a chamber and compressed back to size in a die) it becomes harder and more brittle. When it is heated and cooled slowly it also becomes brittle. This is true of all the copper alloys that I've ever worked with (bronze, brass, copper etc.) Iron and its alloys get softer as you work it as does lead. Resizing a cast lead bullet that has been hardened by rapid cooling changes it's hardness back to virtually what it would have been if it were not hardened by cooling. These changes are a result of the crystalline structure at a molecular level changing as a result of heating, cooling and working. Again, I can give you "chapter and verse" from a number of reloading manuals that SAY it's a result of the crystalline structure changing, but I will save that for after you have questioned this statment and just before you call it "nonsense".

    Wax sheets that are made by dipping a wet board in beeswax, are much more brittle than the same wax sheets after they have been run through a mill and pressed. Something in the structure of the wax changes when it is worked and it becomes much more flexible and much less brittle. (just like two of the three above mentioned materials) I don't know the exact cause, but since wax has a crystalline structure (as evidenced by the fact that there is such a thing microcrystalline wax) it would make sense that this change is similar to other malleable solids such as lead, copper and iron alloys.

    With beeswax, I see the soft wax (newly built by the bees or newly pressed by the milling machine) go back to being more brittle and less flexible over time. I don't know the exact cause, but I would suspect it is the reverse of the same change we saw when we ran it through the mill.

    The camping supply places have been claiming (and, as I said in the first place, I don't know if it's true or not) that microcrystalline wax candles burn longer. They have been claiming this for decades, despite the fact that you did not notice. I read about them in REI catalogs back in the 1980's and I think as far back as the late 70's. Since they do have a higher flash point and a higher melting point than regular paraffin I have to assume it's likely they do last longer than regular paraffin.

    So to recap what we know:

    1) Wax is crystalline in structure (as evidenced by microcrystalline wax)
    2) Materials with a crystalline structure that I have worked with, (which is admittedly a short list) are all affected by rapid or slow cooling processes and by working the material.
    4) The hardness of beeswax is also affected by working it and by time.
    3) Smaller crystals in the structure of paraffin wax affect melting points and flash points and have been claimed for decades to increase burning times.

    So it does NOT seem impossible to me that rapid cooling of beeswax could have an effect on the burning time of a candle. So, as I said to yhou in the first place, "You are probably right that freezing a beeswax candle won't change the burning rate. But without some experimentation, I don't see how we can say for a fact that it won't."
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #10
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    Wow, there we were, just talking about beeswax,
    and suddenly BULLETS started flying! [img]smile.gif[/img]

    So as to avoid getting too technical about
    a side-issue for beekeepers, here's a picture
    of the crystal structure of (pure) lead.
    http://www.webelements.com/webelemen...t/Pb/xtal.html

    It is NOT going to change, no matter what you do.
    While a material that could somehow dynamically
    "shift" or change its basic crystal structure
    would be waaaay cool, you aren't going to see
    one anytime soon anywhere outside of science
    fiction. Alloys would have different crystal
    structures, also always the same for any specific
    alloy.

    What you speak of with "rapid cooling" versus
    slow cooling of metals is similar to what happens
    when forming Martensitic stainless steels, which
    also need rapid cooling. This is NOT a change
    to any crystal structures, but is, instead a
    change to how the different metals (each with
    their own crystal structure) combine.

    And of course you can "work" a metal and get
    a (gross characteristic) change in hardness,
    but this also does not change the basic crystal
    structure.

    So, to recap with accurate info:

    > 1) Wax is crystalline in structure (as evidenced
    > by microcrystalline wax)

    So far, so good.

    > 2) Materials with a crystalline structure that I
    > have worked with... are all affected by rapid or
    > slow cooling processes and by working the
    > material.

    The gross physical characteristics can be
    modified, but the crystal structures do not
    change in the least for any one component
    in the metal.

    > 4) The hardness of beeswax is also affected by
    > working it and by time.

    I can't say if this point is true or not, but
    I can say that there would not be any change
    to the crystal structure as a result of "working"
    the wax, or the passage of time.

    > 3) Smaller crystals in the structure of paraffin
    > wax affect melting points and flash points and
    > have been claimed for decades to increase
    > burning times.

    ...by charlatans [img]smile.gif[/img]

    "Melting point" might matter as a storage issue,
    but as explained before, has no possible impact
    on the combustion rate. Flash points are not
    very different at all for any of the various
    candle "waxes":

    Beeswax - 490 to 535 F
    Paraffin - 478 to 489 F
    Microcrystaline Paraffin - 345 to 510 F

    ...and much much less different when compared to
    the temperature of combustion (the flame).

    > So it does NOT seem impossible to me that rapid
    > cooling of beeswax could have an effect on the
    > burning time...

    So, do your experiment!

    Arguing the point with me will never convince
    you. The tone of your most recent post is less
    than civil in your inappropriate personal
    comments, so I will direct you to your good friend
    Google, where you can find other, perhaps
    better-presented explanations, or at least find
    all the different types of candles that you can
    use in your test.

    Here's a picture of Mike and I as he brings up
    the subject of "lead":
    http://www.webelements.com/webelemen...ingzero/Pb.gif

  11. #11
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    >inappropriate personal comments

    The only thing I can imagine that you have interpreted as "inappropriate personal comments" are quotes from your posts in the past directed at me and I did NOT direct them at you, I merely predicted a similar response again.

    I love the cartoon. Thanks for making my day.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #12
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    When you start a sentence with "Jim, ..." you
    clearly have directed a comment at me.

    Or were you addressing some other "Jim"?
    There are lots of us about.

    While you might offer an "anecdote" about your
    attempts at predicting the future in an attempt
    to dodge and weave, it would be "nonsense". [img]smile.gif[/img]

    The trick is to be hard on the problems, but
    remain soft on the people.

  13. #13
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    >When you start a sentence with "Jim, ..." you
    clearly have directed a comment at me.

    >>Jim, I can give you "chapter and verse" from a Lyman cast bullet manual, but when I do such things you refer to it as "nonsense" and when I don't you refer to it as "anecdotal

    Yes, I directed this stentence to you. I said I would be willing to provide references. What about that was offensive? Then I quoted previous comments from you when I did provide refernces("nonsense") and when I did not ("anecdotal"). I did not say that anything you said was nonsense (despite the fact that you have often used that to describe things I have said) nor did I accuse you of offering "anectdotal" comments despite the fact that you did not back up your statements.

    If you really want, I can look up all the previous times you've called what I've said nonsense, but I'd rather spend my time on more productive things.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  14. #14
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    Post

    The speed of the temperature change really
    does not impact any of the items listed.

    Jim, I read your post with interest most of the time as pertaining to bee keeping but this time I must agree with Michael. Only had the bees three years and always learning. Steel, different thing,Retired two years ago after working as a welder 30 years. Preheat/postheat,oil quench/air cooled, Temp Sticks to control the speed of cooling. brittle versus Machineable.
    I'll keep reading about our bees and products. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  15. #15
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    Post

    Pissing contests usually get both people all wet and accomplish little.

    An observation.

    BubbaBob

  16. #16
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    > ...get both people all wet...

    Oh no... if the candles get WET, then freezing
    them will surely form cracks all over their
    surface! [img]smile.gif[/img]

    > ...working as a welder 30 years.

    Then you can certainly list which steel alloys
    can and cannot be "worked" or "heat treated",
    and you clearly understand that you are not
    re-arranging the basic crystal structures when
    you work or heat-treat metal. Maybe you can
    re-read Michael's questions and answer them to
    Michael's satisfaction in regards to crystal
    structures.

    I tried.

  17. #17
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    >An observation.

    Hey! Come on Bubba! It's just gettin' good.

    Come on guys! Don't just roll over, go for it! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  18. #18
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    Post

    Quick -- someone start a poll so we can vote for a gold medal winner in this urinary olympics.

  19. #19
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    >Come on guys! Don't just roll over, go for it

    OK.

    http://www.benbest.com/cryonics/lessons.html

    "When a metal plastically deforms, the manner in which it does so is by the formation and propagation of flaws (dislocations) within the crystal grains. Grain boundaries resist crystal propagation of dislocations, which is why smaller grain size increases yield strength."

    "When a blacksmith pounds on a horseshoe, he or she is making the horseshoe harder by increasing the number of dislocations and reducing grain size."

    "Cooling or heating a material can create stresses leading to fracture, ie, thermal shock. Thermal shock resistance typically varies directly with fracture strength & thermal conductivity while it varies inversely with stiffness & thermal expansivity."

    "In metallurgy, annealling can reduced cored structure, reduce internal stress and increase grain size."

    http://www.aws.org/wj/feb03/feature2.html

    "We should at this time discuss grain size and its formation relative to carbon steels. Pure iron transforms from BCC to FCC at 1670°F. The grain size is at its smallest at this temperature. Carbon steels, however, start to form austenite at 1333°F (A1 line) and are completely austenitic at the A3 line. This means the grain size starts to become smaller at the A1 line and is at its smallest at the A3 line. If heated way above the A3 line, the grain size increases. We will return to this subject later."

    "Look at the 0.45% C steel labeled #2. On slow cooling from the A3 line, crystals of ferrite begin forming as they did with the #1 steel. As the steel continues to slowly cool, more ferrite crystals are present."

    "It is also the lowest temperature structural change point for carbon steels. At slightly above 1333°F, the steel is all austenite (FCC). On slow cooling to 1333°F, the ferrite cementite lamella formation takes place. In this case it is 100% pearlite. Pearlite contains 88% ferrite and 12% cementite. On heating the reverse occurs and at 1333°F all the pearlite transforms to austenite. Keep in mind that at this temperature or just above, the grain size is at its smallest.

    Thus far, we have discussed what happens when the steel is heated or cooled very slowly. Let's see what happens when we rapidly cool a piece of 0.8% carbon steel from the fully austenitic state. When this steel is rapidly cooled, the FCC state is actually suppressed down to around 200°F. By doing this, the austenite pearlite change has been completely passed and we have a FCC structure that has to change to a BCC structure. The transformation at this temperature is a shear-type transformation. Remember that the FCC structure can take on 1.8% C and the BCC structure can take on only 0.008% C at room temperature. If the 0.8% C steel is cooled in cold water, the FCC state is suppressed down to around 200°F, where it has to immediately transform to the BCC state. Due to this shear type of transformation, the carbon in the FCC state does not have sufficient time to precipitate, resulting in a BCC structure that has more carbon than normal. In fact, the BCC structure is highly distorted. This type of structure is called a highly distorted body-centered tetragonal, more commonly known as martensite. What we have done to this 0.8% C steel is fully harden it. A fully hardened steel has little use as an engineering material; therefore, we usually temper or draw the steel to a desired hardness. Tempering is a heat treating process in which a fully hardened piece of steel is reheated between 300 and 1000°F. Tempering releases some of the trapped carbon atoms. These released carbon atoms combine with iron atoms to produce iron carbide (Fe3C) also known as cementite. The 0.8% C steel was chosen because it is one of the easiest to harden. Theoretically, a 0.1% C steel can be hardened if a fast enough cooling rate can be accomplished. A water quench, however, would not be fast enough; therefore, it is said a 0.1% C steel (mild steel) cannot be hardened. A 0.45% C steel is about the minimum carbon content steel that can be easily hardened using a water quench. It must be remembered that in order to harden steels in the 0.45*0.80% C range, they must be heated to just above the upper critical A3 line, then cooled in the desired cooling medium. Steels above 0.8% C can also be easily hardened. The only difference is they do not have to be heated to the Acm line and then cooled. The steel has to be heated to just above the A1 line then cooled, usually in oil. The reason is that steels above 0.8% C contain cementite as well as martensite on fast cooling. Cementite is a very hard constituent in steels."

    http://www.toolingu.com/bookstore/it...spx?item_ID=45
    http://castcut.com/nar/outline%20overview.html


    It's all about crystals, grain size and dislocations all of which are controled by either working or the speed and degree of heating and cooling. Whether it's glass or steel or lead or copper or whatever crystaline solid you want to talk about. Since wax is also a crystaline solid I would suspect it would have to follow some of the same rules.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  20. #20
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    OK, you finally "get it".

    "Grains" are large groups of crystals, but are
    really nothing more than random "hunks" of
    metal. As I said, one CAN change the gross
    physical properties of a material by "working"
    it or heat-treating a specific heat-treatable
    material, but (to repeat for the umpteenth time):

    THIS DOES NOT CHANGE THE CRYSTAL STRUCTURE

    So, now all you have to do is satisfy yourself
    that "grains" are not crystals, but are large
    assemblies of crystals, and you should be able
    to have a better understanding, and get away
    from making statements like "wax is also a
    crystaline solid", and using it to draw any
    conclusions.

    But do your experiment, anyway.

    I think it would make interesting reading in
    either one of the bee magazines. If you sent a
    copy to me, I would lobby hard to get it in the publication schedule.

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