vertical top bar hive - warre hive

[Sasha]

On another forum I heard about an interesting hive.It is something like a vertical top bar hive.It deals with my main objections to a tbh: to big volume and horizontal expansion.
http://ruche-warre.levillage.org/La%...9cologique.htm
http://ruche-warre.levillage.org/Pra...20Ph%20Chr.htm

[Michael Bush]

As I understand it this is not a movable frame hive. The hive is not opened or worked except for a spring inspection and a fall harvest.

[stangardener]

i too saw the posts and found them quite interesting. while working i was thinking about them wondering how do the combs stay straight with out manipulation? then it occurred to me that with the air space between the narrow bars they have little choice but to build on the bars. i don't read french but would like to find out the bar and air space width some time. right now i'm having enough fun supering and adding 4.9 foundation to tanzanian hives to get involved in anything new. i might be more inclined to glean management techniques from warre beeking than equipment. they look very similar to eight frame langs with natural comb to me

[mobees]

If I had a bunch, I'd be worried about the odd weak hive and the potential for Beetle and Moth infestations. With horizonal hives it would seem like alot less pain for the 2 or 3 out of 10 that have issues throughout the year. What is the advantage of this design?

[Sasha]

I forgot to add that those web sites are french.
You can use alta vista babelfish translation,it seems that it works a little better now so you can understand its translation now.
Yes it is a hive without movable frames,which make it illegal in USA if I am right.Thats not a concern for me,since where I live nobody is interested in how I keep my bees.The hive is opened twice a year,in spring to take out all combs and give the bees all new ¨supers¨ with wax starting strips.Then the bees are treated if needed in a ¨decontaminator¨ box,or not because almost all the mite are left in brood cells.Besides this hive should have all natural cells,so the problems have to be smaller.Also other kind of bee diseases should be much much smaller. The supers are added from bellow.In autumn honey is harvested.Hive boxes are smaller than langstroth boxes 30x30x21 cm which gives bees less space to control temperature,airflow and moisture.Last ,the disturbance off bees by the beekeeper is almost nonexistant.It is a hive easy to build,it seems,very low menagement work load,it gives bees a good natural home,it checks varroa and other diseases.I have bought the idea,I will try the hive next year.

[Michael Bush]

>Yes it is a hive without movable frames,which make it illegal in USA

Actually there are no federal US laws concerning hives, but I believe every individual state has a law against hives that don't have movable comb.

If you really wanted such a hive, You could make it with top bars or even frames. But it seems to me, from my experience, that most of the claims they are making can be traced back to natural cell size.

[chris jeppesen]

Originally the warre hive had some kind of latise or screen in the top. It is now used with frames. Like sasha I have bought into this hive. and also the round version. I like the the fact that the 3cm thickness of the wood is 1.18 inches so I've been biulding these from scrap 2X4, 6, 8s ect. The round version can be built with 2X4s as short as 9 inches.
except for burning what can you do with a 9 inch 2X4 (1.5 X 3.5)
I like the idea that the wax is only in the hive 2 seasons and them removed.
I like the idea that except in mar when you would be checkering, emty supers are added to the bottom.
I like the Idea that because of the small size of the hive less honey is used by the bees to stay warm.
notice i like ideas not facts. But our french and belgium counter parts are calling these facts. I'm not saying everyone should switch and switch now. but I for sure am going to try some and see.

i also like the fact that they are smaller and lighter.
best wishes to all
chris

[buckbee]

There is now a lively Abbé Warré/vertical top bar hive forum in English at http://www.biobees.com/forum with links to David Heaf's translation of Abbé Warré's book 'Beekeeping For All'.

[MIKI]

If I had a bunch, I'd be worried about the odd weak hive and the potential for Beetle and Moth infestations. With horizonal hives it would seem like alot less pain for the 2 or 3 out of 10 that have issues throughout the year. What is the advantage of this design?

The advantage is the beeks who are using them have not treated with anything in three years. If you want it straight from the horses mouth they are on the biobees forum you can pick thier brains there.

[David Heaf]

Over Christmas I translated the document that prompted me to experiment with beekeeping in Warré hives. I have put it on the net for free download at http://www.mygarden.me.uk/thur.pdf. It comprises a couple of chapters from 'Beekeeping: natural, simple and ecological' by
by Johann Thür translated from Bienenzucht. Naturgerecht einfach und erfolgsicher (Wien, Gerasdorf, Kapellerfeld, 2nd ed., 1946). I found it so convincing that I asked the beekeeper at the Goetheanum in Switzerland who sent it me for plans of such a hive. In reply he said that the hive concept had been updated and that the Warré design is now used.

Thür argues that for maximum bee health a hive should mimic as near as possible the situation in a cavity, say in a hollow tree, occupied by wild/feral bees. The most important thing to not about this situation is that the combs are fixed to the roof of the cavity and to some extent to the walls. The arrangement forms cul-de-sacs or spaces between the combs that are open only at the bottom. With this arrangement, there is nowhere for rising currents of warm air to go. It observes the principle of what Thür referred to as 'Nestduftwärmebindung' which one could translate as 'retention of nest scent and heat'.

Thür then goes on to describe a type of hive that strictly observes this principle. It is the hive of Abbé Christ (1739-1813). From Thür's description of it, it is clear that it is identical in concept to Warré's. Not only that, but also, if correct conversion of the old French units of measurement are used, the internal plan of a Christ hive body appears to be 30 x 30 cm, itentical with Warré's. Yet the two men are believed to have reached their hive designs independently.

Whilst I can only speculate what retention of nest scent means in terms of health for the bees, I think that nobody will have difficulty with the concept of retention of nest heat. It would be an interesting task for bee science to study the importance of the quality, composition and integrity of the pheromone-laden atmosphere between the combs for bee health.

P.S. In case there is any misunderstanding I should like to add to Chris Jeppesen's post. There are indeed beekeepers who insert frames in Warré format hives, but this modification greatly departs from Warré's intentions which are further supported by the article mentioned above. The least intrusive type of frame I have seen is that of Roger Delon. To the Warré top-bar is added a length of 3 mm stainless steel wire round the three remain edges of where comb will develop to. For those living in legislatures that tell beekeepers what kinds of combs to use, this would be an option for staying within the law.

I have started a Warré beekeeping e-group:
To join, visit http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/warrebeekeeping or send an email to warrebeekeeping-subscribe@yahoogroups.co.uk

All existing and prospective Warré beeks etc are welcome.

[Paraplegic Racehorse]

>Yes it is a hive without movable frames,which make it illegal in USA

Actually there are no federal US laws concerning hives, but I believe every individual state has a law against hives that don't have movable comb.

If you really wanted such a hive, You could make it with top bars or even frames. But it seems to me, from my experience, that most of the claims they are making can be traced back to natural cell size.

Most states legislate a requirement of "moveable comb", not "moveable frame." Thus, the reason TBHs are permitted. Granted, strictly as designed by Warre, the bars are attached to the boxes. However, I see no reason why they would, or even should, be attached. If they are not attached, you have a moveable comb hive and no problems with ability to inspect.

Personally, I find this really quite a good idea, especially since I currently have a limited availability of dollars (for hive parts and gadgets) AND time (for repeated manipulations and/or construction of parts). I think I will try a few of these, this year, and see what comes of it.

[mobees]

I would think that this type of hive would be difficult
to manage, since you would probably have brood in
everybox for most of the year. Inspections might be
devastating, especially in warm climates but also in hot northern
summers. There would also likely, be pollen in everybox and sealed
under capped honey. If your hive developed AFB, it would be a carrier for
your whole apiary throughout the season creating problems
for you and your neighbors. In Beetle country a weak hive taken down
would be a dripping oozing mess. I would think a TTBH or standard TBH would
be safer and just as cheap.

[buckbee]

The Warré hive is designed for minimum intervention; the theory being that if you keep bees as nature intended, i.e. in a vertical 'cylinder' and allow them to build natural comb, they will not get AFB or other diseases and so will not need to be inspected.

I haven't used a Warré hive myself yet - although I plan to build one this year - but they certainly look like a practical alternative to the horizontal TBH if you don't mind a bit of lifting.

See the forum on my site for lots more on the vertical TBH, if you are interested, and look here - http://warre.biobees.com - for free downloads of David Heaf's translations from Warré and other European VTBH writers.