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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Farmington, New Mexico
    Posts
    6,533

    Sad

    After a long hard day we picked up a bucket of chicken with all the side dishes rather than cook a decent meal. The biscuits come with packets of honey. At least it said honey and looked like honey. After tasting it I flipped the packet over and read the ingredients. "Honey" is listed 3rd, after corn syrup and some other nasty stuff. Re-reading the front label I see it's actually "Honey Sauce", with everything but "Honey" printed in a size and color that really is misleading. You'd think the Colonel could stick a packet of the real thing in with the biscuits rather than the slop I got. Here's a link to their customer comment page. Perhaps if they received lots of comments about real honey vs. that junk they're using now some of our members could sell a few extra pounds some day.

    http://64.213.197.19/forms/irpt_Comments.asp
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,802

    Post

    It's the same with "honey nut cherrios" etc. There is far more corn syrup than honey. One of those I remember had more salt than honey.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    Worse than that, "Honey-Baked Ham" is baked with,
    you guessed it, zero percent honey.

    Simple "truth in advertising" regulations ought
    to apply here, but states tend to regulate this
    sort of thing more than the feds, and states have
    no control over products produced elsewhere, and
    appear to have little interest in "brand name
    fraud", where Honey is found only in the name.

    The punchline?

    Well, while my actual Sourwood honey is purchased
    every year on the sly by the VA department of
    whatever, and tested to verify that it is actual
    Sourwood honey, and likely raises a few eyebrows
    when they find that it is 100% Sourwood honey,
    rather than the blend of 51% Sourwood and 49%
    Lord-only-knows what honey sold by most packers
    and beekeepers, the "Sourwood Honey Company"
    operated for years, selling honey with the word
    "Sourwood" in very large bold print on all their
    labels, without ever bottling a single ounce of
    actual Sourwood honey (which is prized for its
    flavor).

    It took years to shut even them down.
    C'est la vie.

    jim

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Rochester, Washington, USA
    Posts
    973

    Post

    Isn't a trip my wife and I got a real good laugh when we read a packet at KFC, laughed so loud that people were looking at me, Thought it was just 'cause I'm good looking' , till my wife "piffed" me upside the head.
    \"ONLY WHEN THE LAST RIVER HAS BEEN DRIED UP<br />THE LAST TREE BEEN CUT DOWN<br />THE LAST WILD FISH CAUGHT<br />WILL MAN REALIZE YOU CAN\'T EAT MONEY\"<br />GHANDI (?)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Posts
    1,649

    Post

    "honey sauce" instead of honey when packaged to look like honey is deceptive IMPOV too.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Posts
    1,649

    Post

    &gt;the "Sourwood Honey Company" operated for years, selling honey with the word "Sourwood" in very large bold print on all their labels, without ever bottling a single ounce of actual Sourwood honey

    Unfortunately, many beekeepers aren't as scrupulous as they ought to be either. Here in Alaska, fireweed honey is prized for it's light color and mild flavor. As the old saying goes--much more of it is sold than is actually produced. At the state fair one vendor sells ONLY 'fireweed' honey. Much of her honey is purchased from other beekeepers for resale. I asked her how she knew it was really 'fireweed' honey. She said the beekeepers tell her it is.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Posts
    1,649

    Post

    Read it carefully. I think it says 'Honey Sauce' and not simply 'honey'. Doesn't it? Still it's deceptive IMPOV

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,802

    Post

    Well, it says something like "HONEY sauce" where honey is very large and sauce is very small.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
    Posts
    2,298

    Post

    Its probably best that these products actually contain very little honey as its mostly imported chinese junk that most would find objectionable if any of it had an actual honey flavor.Anyone think they are using Dakota clover or Cal. sage?Hahaha.I have always taken great pleasure in pointing out the fraud in these products,but no one cares,its a sign of the times we live in.Enron,etc.....

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    Its funny - if a company makes a fruit drink,
    or fruit jelly, they must either use the real
    fruit, or they are forced to use the word
    "flavored" to indicate that they have used
    artificial flavoring rather than the real fruit.

    Why this same set of rules does not apply to
    honey is unclear to me, perhaps because we
    still lack a formal definition of what honey
    is. Cargill came out with a "honey replacement"
    called "Likewise" last summer, I assume it to be
    some sort of concoction based upon HFCS.
    http://www.cargill.com/news/news_rel...3_likewise.htm

    Clearly, beekeepers need to think carefully about
    which brand of HFCS they want to buy for colony
    feed in light of this product announcement.

    To be perfectly honest, a food chemist may tell
    you that using 100% pure honey in a packaged
    product that must have a long shelf life like
    Honey-Nut Cheerios would complicate things greatly.
    That said, sealed individual servings of actual
    honey at KFC would be no more trouble to store
    and handle than the slop they currently hand out.

    The "breakfast buffet" at the decent hotels
    (Embassy Suites, larger Hiltons, etc) will
    often have little packages of real honey, so
    the products are available, and cheap enough
    that one can find a basket full of them near
    the jellies, coffee creamers, and such.

    My view is that products that use the term
    "Honey" in the name of the product or as a
    prominent feature on the front label should
    use honey as the only, or the primary sweetener.
    There may be good (chemistry) reasons to need
    to add smaller amounts of other sweeteners,
    so I don't think that it is reasonable to
    demand 100% honey as the sole sweetener in
    packaged foods.

    Cargill and ADM are rapidly approaching the
    "Soylent Green" scenario, so much so that
    I expect both to soon have food products
    made from ocean algae this decade.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,802

    Post

    Interesting. They call it "Cargill’s new Likewise™ Honey Product". Yet it's a "Honey Product" with no honey in it.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Farmington, New Mexico
    Posts
    6,533

    Post

    Clearly, beekeepers need to think carefully about
    which brand of HFCS they want to buy for colony
    feed in light of this product announcement.
    Let me make sure I understand this. Cargill manufactures HFCS which is purchased by commercial beekeepers as feed. Cargill also tweaks a similar sweetener and sells (or proposes to sell) as a cheaper alternative to 100% pure US produced honey. Is that correct?
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Rochester, Washington, USA
    Posts
    973

    Post

    The way I read their newsrelease 'Likewise' is supposed to be an affordiable substatute for honey???? :confused: .
    But as with all 'substatutes' there will probaly be some after taste or other short comming.
    Fans of 'real'honey will probaly stay loyal to honey and the (forgive me) Yuppies and animals right groups will flock to the 'immatation' honey.
    \"ONLY WHEN THE LAST RIVER HAS BEEN DRIED UP<br />THE LAST TREE BEEN CUT DOWN<br />THE LAST WILD FISH CAUGHT<br />WILL MAN REALIZE YOU CAN\'T EAT MONEY\"<br />GHANDI (?)

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kiel WI, USA
    Posts
    2,368

    Post

    Yep.

    At AHPA, there was a speaker representing the ABF, who said that one of the large corn growers associations was willing to help pressure Cargill on the matter.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Posts
    1,649

    Post

    ...and tihs isn't the first time for honey substitutes. There was a mild flap a few short years back about 'analog honey' manufactured in India, I think. It was touted as being indistinguisable from real honey.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,802

    Post

    I figure you can make something that is indistinguishable from the burned metalic tasting crud they sell as honey in the grocery store. But not indistinguishable from the fresh floral tasting, unheated honey that a lot of us have.

    They've already gotten Americans to belive that honey tastes like that stuff in the grocery store, it's not that far of a stretch then to make "artificial" honey that taste just as bad.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
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    Post

    &gt; There was a mild flap a few short years back about
    &gt; 'analog honey' manufactured in India, I think. It
    &gt; was touted as being indistinguisable from real
    &gt; honey.

    It never appeared on the market. I guess it turned
    out to be slightly more distinguishable than they
    had hoped. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Farmington, New Mexico
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    6,533

    Post

    This seems to me to indicate the need for some sort of marketing/educational approach that would bring more awareness to the consumer regarding the purity/labeling/origin of what they're eating. I know the NHB addresses this in some form, but I wonder if the average person on the street is aware of such things as imported honey and honey pretenders. Anyone up-to-date on the NHB's efforts, labeling requirements, etc. regarding honey? With over 2,000 members on this forum alone it would seem feasible to mount a small "awareness campaign" if managed properly.
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
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    Post

    &gt; I know the NHB addresses this in some form, but
    &gt; I wonder if the average person on the street is
    &gt; aware of such things as imported honey and honey
    &gt; pretenders.

    Of course not - and the NHB itself is to blame!

    To be accurate, it is the "enabling legislation"
    that is to blame, but the honey board itself could
    have requested relief from restrictions that they
    claimed prevented them from promoting US Honey
    rather than just "Honey" as a generic commodity.
    Beekeepers have been asking for this for decades,
    so the NHB has certainly not lacked for suggestions.

    The problem is that packers and importers dominate
    the Honey Board, and US beekeepers are represented
    only as an afterthought in this group of buffoons
    who shall be among the first put up against the
    nearest wall come the revolution.

    But what goes around, comes around, and these
    same importers and packers who have been flooding
    the US market with low-quality honey from places
    like China are now faced with a serious competitor.
    That's right, kids! China took a while, but figured
    out that they could be their own bottler, and
    "cut out the middle-man"!

    I wondered how long it would take them to buy
    a bottling line or two and find someone who
    was willing to distribute their product in the US.

    The punch line is that they are buying US honey,
    mixing it with theirs at a ratio that I'd
    estimate to be 1000:1, just so they can claim
    that they honey is "a blend of honey from the USA
    and China".

    Payback is a rabid female dog, isn't it? [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Now we may see some real action on the issue of
    "country of origin labeling" (COOL) for honey.
    Once the big packers realize that they need
    to differentiate their product from the Chinese
    product, they will realize that their sole
    advantage will be to offer "more US honey" in
    their blends, or (gasp!) 100% US honey.

    Betcha they come up with some sort of weasel
    wording like "North American Honey", so they
    can pass off Canadian honey as something akin
    to US honey.

    But who among us is selling the US honey to
    China in the first place? Perhaps it is being
    sold to some other country, who then sells it
    to China, but I suspect that it would not take
    too much research to name names, and expose the
    worst of the profiteers for what they are.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    North Georgia mountains
    Posts
    923

    Post

    Take this observation's worth to be, possibly, just what you paid for it, but...

    I don't think all the finger-pointing needs to go in the direction of the NHB, Cargill, ADM, etc., ad nauseum. Remember, every time you point a finger at someone you have three fingers pointed back at yourself.

    I know many beekeepers do this as a hobby, producing enough honey for personal consumption and as gifts to family/friends. They don't really have a dog in the fight over imports/blends/fake "honey".

    For the rest of us, however, we produce to make money in a capitalist system. Remember the first thing that makes decisions in a capitalist system...supply and demand.

    The number of beekeepers and hives in the US and Canada has been steadily declining for years, with the attendant drop in honey production, exacerbated by various pest/disease issues. At the same time, demand for honey has been on a steady increase all along. Demand will ALWAYS find a way to be supplied, and in the case of honey, that means imports so long as we don't produce enough to meet demand. We don't even produce enough to meet the demand for people that will pay a high dollar premium for good local honey, much less the corporate buyers that would have to be convinced of the benefit of domestically produced honey. If all of a sudden everyone in this country decided they all, corporate buyer and consumer buyer alike, wanted domestic honey and nothing else, would we fill that demand? Not even close. We all produce all we need to fill the speciality retail market, like craft fairs and local farmers markets, but how many of us do, or try to do, enough production for regional supermarket chains? How many of us have our product in all the local health food stores within 50 miles of our honey house? How many of us are willing to work a route, even if we have enough product, just like the bread man and the milk man, delivering our product to stores, keeping the shelves where our product is neat and filled?

    Not many.

    Obviously most of us sell all we produce without problem, and don't try to provide that most demanding taskmaster, demand, with all she needs, so she looks elsewhere, i.e. overseas, to have her needs filled.

    I have a friend with 100 hives. Last year he averaged 30 lbs of cut-comb per hive. It was a bad year, but that still translates into $270 - $300 per hive at retail prices. Assuming there was no used equipment for sale to be had at pennies on the dollar (there is around here, that's for sure), and assuming no hive was strong enough to split this spring (80 of the 100 are strong enough to split), and assuming buying new, with packages, cost him $175 per new hive (actually more like $150 ea for bottom, three med supers w/frames and foundation, inner/outer lids, and a package of bees), he could increase production by 5% for $825. Did he? No. But he still complains about all the imported stuff. He is one of those with 3 fingers pointed back at himself. Sells all he produces, won't do what it takes to produce more, then says imports are hurting his income. I don't see how.

    How many of us willingly spend a few bucks to do simple things like re-queening at least every other year? It costs you a little more that one 2 lb jar of honey, at retail ($8 around here), to re-queen...that's one lb of honey per year to re-queen. I got in this business by buying out a guy a few years back that was complaining that after 7 years of beekeeping with 10 hives, if he wanted a teaspoon of honey he had to go to the local supermarket and buy it. In the 7 years he had been keeping bees he had bought 3....yes 3...queens.

    A big honey production killer affects a lot of us...Varroa mites. Those pesky little Apistan resistant mites. How did they get resistant? Mainly because of lazy bee keepers. We are either so cheap we quit with the strips as soon as we see mite counts drop, or are so lazy we leave the strips in far too long. Mites become resistant in both cases...and it is OUR FAULT. The next new miracle cure for hive problems will suffer the same fate as Apistan if we continue to ignore label directions for use. Again, less honey produced to fill demand, more honey imported to do it (fill demand) for us.

    Bottom line, before we start complaining about KFC fake honey, ADM, Cargill, etc., let's clean up our side of the street first.

    BubbaBob

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