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  1. #21
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    --From wikkipedia: Gloger's Rule is a zoological rule which states that within a species of endotherms, more heavily pigmented forms tend to be found near the equator and lighter forms away from the equator. It was named after the zoologist Constantin Wilhelm Lambert Gloger.

    Interesting,
    Keith, would this rule apply to animals that are dependant on solar heating such as cold blooded animals?,,, that have evolved darker colors in the northern climates because it gave them a competitive advantage over lighter colored competitors?

    Perhaps, looking at honeybee colonies that are much more active in the sun than others that are placed in the shade, one could assume that they are greatly benefited by solar heat and a darker bee would absorb more solar heat sooner which would permit earlier foraging and in cooler weather than that of the lighter colored bees, giving them a competitive advantage.

  2. #22

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    Following that logic would not darker species have an advantage in colder climates due to thier advantage of solar heat gain? And in fact its the opposite in a lot of respects. As the effect of camoflage for survival gets into the mix. The first rule of rules is there are no rules. Normaly known as the Barney Fife "Life at the Rock" rule

  3. #23
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    --Following that logic would not darker species have an advantage in colder climates due to thier advantage of solar heat gain?

    Sure it does, [img]smile.gif[/img]
    heres jsut one abstract I ran across:


    “…. Small bees reached lower temperature excesses (Texc) and warmed up and lost heat much more rapidly than larger bees. In addition to body size, body coloration had a clear effect on thermal parameters.”

    Although this states smaller bees loose heat quicker than larger bees, it would be off set by fact that wintering bees usually fly during sunny weather permitting more rapid heat absorption in the darker bees.

    “…Light-coloured bees warmed up less rapidly and had lower Texc than dark bees.

    “….This also suggests that, in general, light bees have an advantage over black bees in hot open lowland habitats, whereas black bees might have an advantage in wet habitats and mountains. The origin, occurrence and function of flavinism (yellow integument colouring) are discussed.”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

    [size="1"][ June 21, 2006, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ][/size]

  4. #24

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    No... thats the opposite.... Of Glogers rule. I think I did not make it clear what I was refering too.

    Sort of as examples Polar Bears vs Black Bears. Opposite. Dealing with camoflage and survival is what I was interjecting.

  5. #25
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    "
    According to a study by HEPBURN, OGHIAKHE and RADLOFF, mountain bees are larger than that found in lower elavations."

    I don't ahve said study - is this all montaqin bees, or just one or two populations?

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  6. #26
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    "Keith, would this rule apply to animals that are dependant on solar heating such as cold blooded animals?,,, that have evolved darker colors in the northern climates because it gave them a competitive advantage over lighter colored competitors? "

    Perhaps, but this is an over simplification as the surface properties of a critter also play into its heat gain and loss. Shiny surfaces pick up radiant heat and radiate it better than matte surfaces.

    I know of a great many tropical ectotherms that are very very dark. In fact we have some monitors at the zoo that love to bask in the South Carolina sun - for hours and they are almost entirely jet black.

    Ectotherms also deploy a number of behaviorally mechanisms to facilitate maintaining their desired temps. They can also pull cool tricks like sending blood to preferred areas to facilitate heat pick up or reduce heat loss.

    So, in short, it is just not that simple. Color may play a role, but there is much more to it than that.

    Keith "animals are not black boxes" Benson

    [size="1"][ June 21, 2006, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: kgbenson ][/size]
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  7. #27
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    >>--other people mentioning that there's virtually no difference in the mature bee's size in SC or large cell combs
    >I have noticed something when I set up my honey stand OB hive at farmers markets. Some beekeepers are oblivious to the smaller size and do not notice, while others pick up on it right away and comment on how small the bees are. So it all depends on the observational skills of the person you are conversing with.

    My son, who has no interest in bees, when he went to the State Fair and saw the bees in the observation hive came home and commented how huge they were compared to our bees. And he's not a beekeeper and if you had asked him if I had small bees before that would probably have said he had no idea.

    >---SC gurus on here,
    are your bees smaller in general?

    The difference is more dramatic when they first emerge. They are tiny then, but they are still noticablly smaller when older.

    > can survivor/feral bees be identified based on their size?

    IMO, yes.

    >After working with small cell bees and ferals for so long, it becomes easy to distinguish the smaller bees from the larger ‘possibly domestic models’ right off when I see them foraging.

    I agree.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  8. #28
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    Keith,

    6 different kinds of unralated mountain bees.

    http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/....pdf?access=ok

  9. #29
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    --So, in short, it is just not that simple. Color may play a role, but there is much more to it than that.

    In the quote from the study below, they seem to be suggesting that it is in fact ‘just that simple’ as color.

    From looking at the study and my experience with bee breeding, my opinion is that it is not necessary that the competitors be ‘obliterated’ by genetic superiority for selection to take place. All that seems to be needed (as the study suggests) is an advantage over the competition no mater how slight the advantage may be.

    “….This also suggests that, in general, light bees have an advantage over black bees in hot open lowland habitats, whereas black bees might have an advantage in wet habitats and mountains. The origin, occurrence and function of flavinism (yellow integument colouring) are discussed.”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

    [size="1"][ June 22, 2006, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ][/size]

  10. #30
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    Hi Guys,

    You can see my bee size measurements at:

    www.bwrangler.com/bee/ssiz.htm

    Regards
    Dennis
    Thinking the relationships of size, season, cell size, race and behavior are a bit more complicated than generally thought.

    [SIZE=1][ December 31, 2006, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: D. Murrell ][/SIZE]
    Last edited by D. Murrell; 11-07-2007 at 07:46 PM.

  11. #31
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    "In the quote from the study below, they seem to be suggesting that it is in fact ‘just that simple’ as color. "

    No they are not:

    "However, body temperatures of foraging bees of colour morphs were not very different. This is probably due to behavioural adaptations (e.g. foraging strategies) or differences in convective and evaporative heat loss or the production of metabolic heat during flight, that all mask the effect of body colour"

    In other words: "in short, it is just not that simple. Color may play a role, but there is much more to it than that."

    Keith "and that is just from the abstract" Benson
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  12. #32
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    "Thinking the relationships of size, season, cell size, race and behavior are a bit more complicated than generally thought."

    Amen
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  13. #33
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    --know of a great many tropical ectotherms that are very very dark. In fact we have some monitors at the zoo that love to bask in the South Carolina sun - for hours and they are almost entirely jet black.

    darker "cold-blooded" animals like lizards and insects can absorb heat more quickly than lighter-colored animals and therefore reach their activity temperature more quickly, I see no reason why it wouldn’t’ apply to southern regions also, but dark color would be of great importance in the cooler climates I would imagine.

    [size="1"][ June 23, 2006, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ][/size]

  14. #34
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    --"However, body temperatures of foraging bees of colour morphs were not very different...."

    But that statement does no negate what I am saying. Sure they would not be that different, because bees regulate their body temperature, so any color bee might have similar body temps. The point I have made is that the darker body allows them to heat up quicker so that foraging and other activities can start sooner and in cooler weather, giving darker bees an advantage in cooler climates.

    [size="1"][ June 23, 2006, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ][/size]

  15. #35
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    Joe - snowshoe rabbits.

    It is just not as simple as darker for the north, lighter for the south. In fact, in our own species quite the opposite it true. Pigment also plays an important role in protecting organisms from some of our suns more harmful effects.

    You have also missed out on slelective partitioning of blood flow, how surface texture affects heat flux etc.

    As I said before, it is not so simple.

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  16. #36
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    "The point I have made is that the darker body allows them to heat up quicker so that foraging and other activities can start sooner and in cooler weather, giving darker bees an advantage in cooler climates."

    I have watched my gals in the AM. Seems to me that they are not sunning themselves to get up to temp on the front porch. If the hive gets morning sun and the hive heats up, i.e. the mass of bees and their environs heats up, they get an earlier start.

    I think metabolic heat is far, far, far more important to individual bees.

    Question: If it is important for southern warm climate bees to be light, why would someone in say, AZ select darker bees?

    Keith

    [size="1"][ June 23, 2006, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ][/size]
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  17. #37
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    >If it is important for southern warm climate bees to be light, why would someone in say, AZ select darker bees?

    Altitude.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #38
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    still mighty hot. . . .
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  19. #39
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    In the moutnains it's still mighty cold at night. The selection process is not done by the Lusby's. That's what the wild bees look like there.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  20. #40
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    Actually I was just picking a hot spot not singling out the Lusby's.

    But since you brought them up - are you saying she doesn't select for darker bees?

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

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