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  1. #41
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    --Joe - snowshoe rabbits.

    Good point, but polar bears and other examples do not apply in this case as this camaflouge related color, and do not rely on solar heat absorbtion.


    In insects, the color, body shape, and the timing of the activities of these organisms all contribute to thermoregulation.

  2. #42
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    --still mighty hot. . . .

    Dee has stated that the her bees often quit foraging during the hottest part of mid day.

  3. #43
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    There is more to polar bear color and hair structure than meets the eye.

    "In insects, the color, body shape, and the timing of the activities of these organisms all contribute to thermoregulation."

    Thanks for making my point - it is not simply color.

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  4. #44
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    I agree that its more than just color, that's my point also!

    But it is significant that bee color is mentioned in the quotes from the study. They state right off that “body coloration had a clear effect on thermal parameters.”

    This is a good discussion tactic and promotes good discussion. You could say that "it’s more than just ____“ to any topic ever discussed. But to say that "it is not simply color" in no way lessens to significant role that body color seems to play as suggested in the citation.

  5. #45
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    --Joe - snowshoe rabbits.

    This helps to prove my point. [img]smile.gif[/img]
    Showshoe hares turn white in the winter, BUT the hairs remain dark at base and probably aid in heat absorption.

    --There is more to polar bear color and hair structure than meets the eye.

    Which also helps to prove my point. [img]smile.gif[/img]
    Beneath the white fur, the Polar Bear's skin is black, which helps it absorb and hold heat.

    If I can add, some say that the hollow hairs are kinda like fiber optics and transfer sunlight directly to the dark skin where it is absorbed, but I'm not sure this is not a myth.

    [size="1"][ June 25, 2006, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ][/size]

  6. #46

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    no... my understanding of the hairs is to create a dead air space insulation. So it would not transfer heat nor cold to the inner surface. Its purpose would be to keep the inner body heat from being lost to exhange with outside air.

  7. #47
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    --my understanding of the hairs is to create a dead air space insulation. So it would not transfer heat nor cold to the inner surface.

    Hi,
    There is some heat absorbtion from the sun according to these Zoo sites:

    ---->
    http://www.alaskazoo.org/willowcrest/polarbearhome.htm

    "Many people do not realize that polar bears have black skin. This is an adaptation that allows maximum warming of the skin when exposed to sunlight."


    ---->
    The black skin is also for heat absorbtion as refrenced by the Fresno Chaffee Zoo.

    http://www.fresnochaffeezoo.com/animals/polarBear.html

    "The polar bear's skin is black to absorb heat, and its long guard hairs are hollow to act as an insulator and for buoyancy."

  8. #48
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    We can always find some URL on the internet that fits our own personal beliefs

    Here's one that's just the opposite:

    http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF13/1390.html

    Polar bears reside ABOVE the Arctic circle. During the coldest months of the year the sun never appears above the horizon. FWIW.

  9. #49
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    >But since you brought them up - are you saying she doesn't select for darker bees?

    She gets swarms all the time from town. The golf courses bring them to her. They look just like her bees. About half are black and the other have are tiger striped. About half to 3/4 of the workers are black. I do not think color is a criteria she's using for breeding. Last I heard she's was not breeding queens at all, just doing splits and letting the bees raise their own queens. She used to raise a lot of queens, but recently they've been focused on retooling and rebuilding.

    The point is that is the color of bees that live their on their own.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #50
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    "I do not think color is a criteria she's using for breeding"

    I remember otherwise. She may select them because she feels that they are molst approrpiate for her local, but I racll her discussing selecting them when she was raising queens in her incubator and hatching the virgins out in little glass jars.

    Keith

    [size="1"][ June 25, 2006, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ][/size]
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  11. #51
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    --We can always find some URL on the internet that fits our own personal beliefs

    I would say “We can always find some credible URL on the internet that supports the facts.”

    If you look carefully, you will see that I took the time to find creditable impeccable sources to back up my statements, they are there if you spend time to look for them.

    I would think that a zoo in Fresno Chaffee California,
    And a zoo in Alaska would have experts that know a bit about polar bears. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Wait, I'll ask Keith.
    Keith, them guys caring after the animals at the zoo's, do they know anything about animals? [img]smile.gif[/img]

  12. #52
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    sorry, double post.

    [size="1"][ June 25, 2006, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ][/size]

  13. #53
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    They do - but at the same token, no one has, or is likely to spend the funds necessary to end the debate with actual data. There are those who are comfortable with the exaplinations you suggested and posted, and others who are not.

    Guess what it takes to feild a team to anesthetize and instrument polar bears? All to say that on a sunny day they net 0.001% more heat from the weak polar sunlight? Ain't gonna happen unless it piggy backs on something else, or has some other application.

    So there will be opinions, and they will vary. Thing is - it is all speculation until someone makes some measurements.

    I just wish people would be a little more up front with what are established verifiable factoids, and what are merely a plausible explainations.

    Keith

    [size="1"][ June 25, 2006, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ][/size]
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  14. #54
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    Keith:
    --All to say that on a sunny day they net 0.001% more heat from the weak polar sunlight?

    Dick:
    --We can always find some URL on the internet that fits our own personal beliefs
    “Polar bears reside ABOVE the Arctic circle. During the coldest months of the year the sun never appears above the horizon. FWIW. “


    Hello,

    I took you advice Dick and found a site that shows polar bears do not reside above the artic circle year round, and are also found in nice sunny locations where the sunlight is warmer, and heat absorption greater. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    http://www.polarbearsinternational.org/arctic-map/

  15. #55
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    Lets say you have a 500 kg polar bear. It's base metabolic rate, i.e. just the calories it burns sitting there and being a bear is on the order of 7400 Kcals, not cals Kcals. And that is a minimum. Drop the temps and it goes up, move, it goes up, eat, breed, raise young etc. that figure goes up 3-5 times that number in fact. Polar bears get the vast vast vast majority of their heat from metabolism (they eat seals - very energy rich) and they hang onto it by being exceptionally well insulated. They are not solar collectors. Even if the bear was jet black, the heat flux into his body from the sun at those latitudes would likely be miniscule in comparison.

    I say likely because I have no data, sort of like this discussion having no real scientific merit, or anything to do with honeybees or the price of chloramphenicol in china.

    Keith
    Bee Sting Honey - So Good, It Hurts!

  16. #56
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    --Even if the bear was jet black, the heat flux into his body from the sun at those latitudes would likely be miniscule in comparison.

    Hello,
    So then you agree that in latitudes where the sun is brighter, there is an influx of heat into the honeybees bodies? Naturally then, darker colors as in dark bees would absorb more heat than lighter bees. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Back to the polar bears,,,
    I do state in my previous posts that:

    "The polar bear's skin is black to absorb heat, and its long guard hairs are hollow to act as an insulator and for buoyancy."

    ‘skin is black to absorb heat’. I don’t say for one moment that sunlight is the sole source of this heat asorbtion.

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