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  1. #41
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    Post

    I have no experience about small cells. But those arguments what people use they are imagination. I don't use to try all tricks what people offer. I use to get best practice and small cell or small bees are not. I need not small cells.

  2. #42

    Post

    Hi Finman,

    > I have no experience about small cells.
    >

    Thank you for replying Finman. This is good to know so we/I can judge what you say about Small Cell Beekeeping.

    > But those arguments what people use they are imagination.
    >

    Except by those beekeepers who use small cell comb wholesale and have seen the RESULTS first hand with their own experiences. Beekeepers who comment against Small Cell Beekeeping with no first hand experience are the ones truly using their imagination.

    > I don't use to try all tricks what people offer.
    >

    Using small cells is not necessarily what I would call a trick, unlike using chemicals would be, I would call using smaller cells simply getting back to nature or traditional beekeeping. You of all people, seeing you are well studied, should know that the honey bees were artificially enlarged in the recent past as documented in Older Books. It was a trick that began the enlarging of the honey bees which in turn enabled other things that were not so good for the honey bees health.

    With all your studying or reading on honey bees can you produce just one document that can prove that the artificial enlarging of honey bees enabled honey bee colonies to produce more honey than honey bees born on natural size worker comb?

    > I use to get best practice and small cell or small bees are not.
    >

    Forgive me Finman, I am having a little problem understanding this statement above.

    > I need not small cells.
    >

    Because you get the results you want from acids, but are acids what the bees want?

    This issue of large cells verses small cells, it is not a simple matter. A beekeeper who wishes to contemplate this issue must be aware of the history and not consider the facts as hogwash. The facts I am speaking of are those that are found in the Older Bee Books and not facts of modern scientific studies that do not take in to consideration the historical facts.

    Finman, when you have studied the historical facts and experienced small cell beekeeping or traditional beekeeping on some kind of a wholesale method then you can claim that you have no need for small cells. Because until you have experience with the methods you just may not know what your bees need compared to what you think you need your bees to need. You like to argue against the use of small cells but you have never used them, I see your arguments shallow for this reason. I would love to be able to respect what you have to say against small cell usage but I find it very difficult seeing you have absolutely no experience with the usage of small cells in the brood nest.

    OK everybody, What are the disadvantages of smaller bees? I would like to hear from those beekeepers who have actually USED smaller cells in the brood nest not from those who imagined what it would be like to USE smaller cells.

    [size="1"][ April 20, 2006, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Keith Malone ][/size]
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    Surrey,UK
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    Hi all
    Kieth on an earlier post you said Finman's methods would lead to super mites. Could you please explain this.

    Regards Ian

  4. #44

    Post

    Hi Ian,

    &gt; you said Finman's methods would lead to super mites. Could you please explain this.
    &gt;

    First thing I stated "His methods gives way for bad genetics, super mites, and bees that survive because he allows them to by default of his methods."

    Super mites were the cause of what I call "The Great California Bee Hive Crash of 2005". The result of this crash was large losses of colonies, a shortage of Package Bees, and prices for of package bees and Almond pollination hive rental fees increasing. Super mites were caused by the usage of chemicals. It was a result of beekeepers dependiong on chemical treatment to control mites instead of relying on the bees natural abilities to control mites on the bees terms.

    I did not say that Finmans methods would lead to super mites but they give way, meaning it can happen if a beekeeper, not necessarily Finman, but if a beekeeper was to miss use the same methods Finman uses, it could very well produce a mite that no longer responds as the beekeeper intended. The results a mite that will not die using the described method of the use of a particular chemical.

    So, What are the Disadvantage of Smaller bees, or using smaller cells?

    Just trying to stay on topic here a little instead of describing the disadvantages of using chemical treatments like suddenly it has turned into. I am sure that no real beekeeper really wants to use chemicals like acids and the such in a hive on honey bees, do they?
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    Surrey,UK
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    Post

    Hi all
    Keith: I am sorry to say you don't appear to have a grasp of the basics of some of the treatments mentioned above. You've classed the acids as 'chemicals' and I presume you think thymol is the same. I believe Apigaurd has been approved for use in some US states.

    The above treatments are actually classed as organic and not chemical!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Both these forms of treatment have been in use in Europe for many years, long before varroa appeared in the US, and no sign of resistance has appeared.

    Thymol has a multi site action when attacking varroa.

    Acids actually dissolve the proboscis of the mite itself and unless they start wearing body armour resistance will not occur. As effective forms of treatments I have no problem in using these methods.Because of the way these treatments attack mites misuse of these products which does happen with chemicals will simply result in fewer mites killed and no resistant build up.

    It has also been proven that thymol and acids do not leave residues in wax.

    You mention the historical facts of bee keeping. Old English skep bee keepers would be lucky to average 10 to 15lbs of honey from a skep. Going back to pre-war and the first wide spread use of frames hives this rose to about 30. Nowadays for the average hobby beekeeper, the norm is approx 80. Personally, I'd stick with the modern day!

    I sympathise with your beliefs in reduced chemicals in any products that we consume but, as I use organic products in my treatments, I don't see a problem. In the UK at the moment we are only just seeing widespread mite resistance to the old favourites like Apistan and Bavorol.

    With regard to small cell I have yet to see any hard evidence of it's success. There are studies that have been carried out in Europe, South America and most recently in New Zealand. NONE HAVE COME OUT IN FAVOUR OF SMALL CELL.

    Before you ask, I will quite happily admit to not having used small cell myself. However, as a treatment of varroa, I have looked into it. Judging by the losses stated in the research produced by those actively supporting it, I would be a fool to use it.

    A guy I know is one of the largest queen producers in Europe. He put about 100 colonies onto small cell and, over a period of time, lost the lot. A colleague of his swapped over to small cell on mass and went bankrupt.

    A large number of the big commercial beekeepers from both sides of the pond are in contact with each other. It has certainly been whispered that small cell success increases in areas of AHB. AHB has a shorter brood period which reduces the varroa breeding cycle and is a smaller bee. Its aggressive nature is also thought to help grooming parasites and ridding the hive of pests.

    There also appears to be a distinct lack of research being done by many of the US universities. As many of these lead research in bee related issues worldwide, I find this very puzzling.

    If small cell can be proven to work, I would welcome its addition but, at the moment, there is a lack of evidence. I'm sure this post will get the replies rolling in (!) and look forward to reading them.

    Best regards
    Ian

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Helsinki, Finland
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    Hi Keith

    You use such terms that it seems that you want to understand objective world. There are no "supermites". They just become fluvinat tolerant like any other pests. I do not know any other supers. I had Apistan tolerant mites and now I use oxalic acid. You use block term "chemicals". It is nothing. All life is full of chemicals.

    Small cell is proven to work on area where is africanized bees. That is why US universities do not reseach question because they know the answer.

    Varroa history is so short that it is not a history. BUt USA has know whole time that resolution? Why you don't use it? - Because it is not a way how you resolve honey industry problems.

    It is same as you say that "since now all medicins are forbidden with cattle".

    And small cell people cannot not understand that mite adapts all the time and faster than bee. Mite is a winner if you want it. Mite does not order my honey business. It is under control.

  7. #47

    Post

    Hi Finman,

    &gt; Why you don't use it?
    &gt;

    Why I don't use what it?

    &gt; There are no "supermites". They just become fluvinat tolerant
    &gt;

    You say "fluvinat tolerant", I say "super mites", they are one in the same, and soon to be "Acid Tolerant Super Mites" next in your neighborhood soon.

    &gt; Varroa history is so short that it is not a history.
    &gt;

    History of Varroa not what I referred to, History of cell and bee size I was.

    &gt; Mite does not order my honey business. It is under control.
    &gt;

    for now until your acid fails on Varroa as it will adapt to it and out grow it as you say.

    Substances used to control varroa or any ailment in a bee hive is considered a medicine.

    &gt; That is why US universities do not reseach question because they know the answer.
    &gt;

    Strange, they know the answer before the study, with no research.

    &gt; Small cell is proven to work on area where is africanized bees.
    &gt;

    Funny, there are those even on this list that will I am sure to dispute this statement above you mentioned. M.B., J.W., D.M. to name a few, with initials, that have there own proof that Small Cells do perform outside Africanized zones in the USA, and in Scandinavian countries there is E.O., and H.O.. There are others I know of but do not participate on email lists.

    I guess it's no use explaining the small cell beekeeping scene to you Finman, you already know all there is to know, it just does not work does it?

    Finman, I can tell you do not understand the Honey bee varroa mite biology. There is yet a lot of reading and understanding to be had by you, start here.
    http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm
    then here;
    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
    then finally here;
    http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/index.htm
    take your time so you get it right. It is a wonder others here are not commenting on your misunderstandings. Perhaps they conclude the effort is useless, I am beginning to think so too. Sorry for the effort.
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    597

    Post

    &gt;Finman, I can tell you do not understand the Honey bee varroa mite biology.&lt;

    I can teach u bee biology if you is able to learn. I have not ever heard acid tolerant super mites.

    Have u used acids or have you mites? I have used only 3 winter. There are many acids which are used: oxalic, formic, lactic. And they are used in different way.

    I manage splendid with bees and with varroa but not with your imagination. I have had mites since 1982.

    I have debated with Michael tens of time. I know Michaels stories and they cannot stand usual fact in beekeeping. He has a lot arguments which are not true.

    &gt;take your time so you get it right. It is a wonder others here are not commenting on your misunderstandings. Perhaps they conclude the effort is useless, I am beginning to think so too. Sorry for the effort.&lt;

    They are your bees. Do what you want but don't deliver your knowledge because do not know what you are doing. My mission is deliver facts for beginners and protect their hives against vain hope.

    Keith! I know that small cell system work with some beekeepers which have a beestock which identify mite as enemy. But over 90% of beekepers have not such bees and mite will destroy their hives. That have happened in nature in every country where varroa come. Africanized bee in America is an exception. Even in South Africa feral bees vanished very quickly or are in bad condition. In New Zeland varroa killed feral bees in 3 yars.

    I just tell that you are wrong Keith. There are studies which tell against you. But keep flag up! You need it. Dont' let varroa jump to your nose.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Devils Lake, North Dakota
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    9,123

    Post

    Finman.....

    As a biologist (BS) I agree with you that acids will not yield resistant mites. It acts on a physical external level rather than an absorbtion and central nervous system disruption. You can't become resistant to acid (at least not to my knowledge).

    This same logic tells me that small cell and the bees shortened period to emergance will, and does disrupt the mite cycle. It does not eradicate them, just suppresses the numbers to a managable level.

    I respect your views and wish you continued success.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Post

    To Sundance: Acids are used so little time that resistancy has been developed. Time is few years.
    Tens of stuff have used against varroa. I bought 1983 from Yogoslavia stuff which was higly casinogenic to beekeepers lungs. I just visited there.

    Authorieties make a lot of work to sieve best practice from trials. Small cell is not a solutions which saves honey industry.

    And when you read from New Zeland queen breeder's articles, they want not a single gene from American varroa resistant bees. They are afraid that they get Africanized stock in their nature. So they want pick resistancy from Europa.
    http://www.queenbees.co.nz/view4.shtml

    In USA they have founded yet varroa tolerant bee
    http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/pro...ACCN_NO=407275


    http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/pav/scstudy.htm

    "By Michelle Taylor
    Hortresearch

    Smaller honeybee cells neither reduce the reproductive success or the amount
    of cells infested by the Varroa destructor mite, according to a New Zealand
    study."

    Same study was done in Sweden and answer was negative.

  11. #51

    Post

    Hi Finman,

    &gt; Smaller honeybee cells neither reduce the reproductive success or the amount
    of cells infested by the Varroa destructor mite, according to a New Zealand
    study."
    &gt;

    Come on man, that test was bogus and you know it. It did not test a colony on small cells it tested a bunch of different cell sizes on one comb which did not prove anything about how a colony controls varroa when a colony is on small cells. That test only proved that a scientist can claim anything he wants to about a bogus study and get paid for proving nothing. If they were really out to prove if Small cells work or not in a bee hive to control varroa they would have regressed a number of colonies and run the test on them as colonies on small cells, that test they did failed to keep bees on small cells, but instead they run this colony on a patch of small cells only a couple of inches square. Finman, you have to do better than this test to prove small cells do not work, you can not honestly tell me that this test proves small cells do not work.
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  12. #52

    Post

    Hi Ian,

    &gt; Keith: I am sorry to say you don't appear to have a grasp of the basics of some of the treatments mentioned above.
    &gt;

    Thank God for that, I put no foreign substances for pest and disease control in a hive that I can not swallow. Acids burn. I have a grasp but I see you do not.

    &gt; The above treatments are actually classed as organic and not chemical!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    &gt;

    Maybe classed as Organic Standard but it is a chemical and a nasty one at that that burns.

    &gt; You mention the historical facts of bee keeping. Old English skep bee keepers would be lucky to average 10 to 15lbs of honey from a skep.
    &gt;

    I did not and was not referring to Skep Beekeeping, please do not put words in my mouth.

    &gt; I use organic products in my treatments, I don't see a problem.
    &gt;

    "Whitewashed Organic" standards set up so chemical treatments are allowed are not honestly Organic. You go ahead and use the trumped up "Whitewashed organic" treatments if you wish and I will use my own no chemical treatment allowed beekeeping standards I use. Government certified "Whitewashed organic" standard treatments is not in my opinion really organic. Unfortunately most of the ignorant public will buy into the "Whitewashed Organic" standards and you will benefit monetarily from it's creation but I do not have to buy it or use it in my beekeeping.

    I have a grasp but do you? I think you are grasping at chemical treatments.
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    Perkasie, PA
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    Post

    &lt;&lt;That test only proved that a scientist can claim anything he wants to about a bogus study and get paid for proving nothing&gt;&gt;

    Keith, a good scientist does not attempt to prove anything. S/he is employed to formulate a testable hypothesis which can help answer questions. The goal is to perform procedudres and communicate results, not to validate dogma on what is or is not good beekeeping practice. Personally, I feel that there is stronger evidence that resistant bees make small cells, rather than small cells making resistant bees. Does that mean its not worth a try?. No, of course not. Just don't "try" it by paying premium prices for someones's Africanized feral queens.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
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    Post

    Keith, you are totally right if you get your hives alive over winter. It suits for me.

  15. #55

    Post

    Hi Aspera,

    &gt; Just don't "try" it by paying premium prices for someones's Africanized feral queens.
    &gt;

    OK, do you know something that your not telling? Where, when, and how has the above statement ever happened? Who is selling Africanized feral queens? Are these bees produced by these queens all a beekeeper would like to see in bees; Gentle, productive, hardy survivors, etc....? If they are good queens, that produce good bees, that survive without treatments, let me know a contact so I may possibly obtain some to test in a real good environment.
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  16. #56

    Post

    Hi Finman,

    &gt; Keith, you are totally right if you get your hives alive over winter. It suits for me.
    &gt;

    Really, then just what was it you were so adamantly arguing about? Oh yea, your the savior of all new beekeepers who might not be able to think for themselves, so you were just keeping balance and giving a convincing argument for the other side of beekeeping. I am sure that your efforts are appreciated by the newest of beekeepers. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    Post

    There is at least one well known advocate of the small cell approach (not on this forum) whose success is most likely attributable to the use of Africanized bees. I suppose even this would be acceptable if the breeder in question acknowleged that this is a problem, and that the bees must be selected primarily for temperment before shipping queens off to unknowing hobbiests. This is why I am such a strong proponent of USDA stock. I do think that Olympic Wilderness has taken a fairly responsible approach to breeding surviver stock, although I have never tried their queens.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
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    Post

    &gt;Come on man, that test was bogus and you know it.

    If the 'bogus' test had come to different conclusions, i.e. small cell bees have been shown to render mites ineffective would it still be claimed to be 'bogus' or would it be held up as scientific proof about the success of small cell? hmmm, I wonder......

  19. #59

    Post

    Hi Dick,

    So what did you think of that research? To me it did not give the small cell comb a fighting chance amongst all the other comb, the dynamics of small cell combs in a colony is what helps enable the colony to control varroa. With the experiment that this research presented of course there will be lots of varroa in the cells they had no where else to go. Every one doing the experiment neglected to have the necessary drone cells present to attract the varroa and the accompanying small cell comb with brood producing the workers in sufficient numbers to create division of labor so there would be the workers to do the job of uncapping drone cells to chew out the mites. That experiment failed by default and that is why it was bogus. it did not prove anything but how misunderstood small cell beekeeping is.

    to answer your question; &gt;If the 'bogus' test had come to different conclusions, i.e. small cell bees have been shown to render mites ineffective would it still be claimed to be 'bogus' or would it be held up as scientific proof about the success of small cell? hmmm, I wonder......&gt;

    Yes, by the exponents not in favor of small cell beekeeping. All will not be pleased.
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  20. #60

    Post

    Hi All,

    what are the disadvantages of smaller bees as the topic of this thread asks besides it causes great debate? Perhaps that is the best thing about it, the controversy. Actually, the question should be what are the disadvantages of smaller cells in the brood nest, if there are any? [img]tongue.gif[/img]
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

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