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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Romney Marsh Kent England UK
    Posts
    292

    Post

    Hi,

    I went to a bee club a couple off day’s ago for the first time to meet fellow beekeepers and to see who is trying small cell etc,

    Well it’s looks like I am the only one that is going to give it a try, that is locally in my area and some even laughed at the thought off smaller bees and the disadvantage my early spring build up and honey yield would be due to the bees carrying smaller amounts nectar and pollen and having to work so much harder,

    Will I see a noticeable drop in my honey surplus?

    Do larger bees out perform smaller bees


    Tony

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Mobile, Alabama
    Posts
    536

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Romney Marsh Kent England UK
    Posts
    292

    Post

    thanks Rob

    i whish i had read that before i had gone to the bee club [img]smile.gif[/img]

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Perkasie, PA
    Posts
    1,998

    Post

    I'm told that larger bees work alfalfa better, and fly at lower temperatures. My bees have very little alfalfa anyway, so I don't worry much about tongue length.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,774

    Post

    > smaller bees and the disadvantage my early spring build up

    What disadvantage? A tighter brood nest with more bees in it and a shorter brood cycle? It must be new math.

    > and honey yield would be due to the bees carrying smaller amounts nectar and pollen and having to work so much harder

    How about more areodynamic healther bees?

    >Will I see a noticeable drop in my honey surplus?

    No. While regressing you MIGHT. Afterwards they will be more productive.

    >I'm told that larger bees work alfalfa better, and fly at lower temperatures.

    Mine didn't get that memo. I've seen them flying at 42 F on a sunny day and I think alfalfa is one of their main flows.

    >My bees have very little alfalfa anyway, so I don't worry much about tongue length.

    That might make a difference on red clover, but not alfalfa.

    >Do larger bees out perform smaller bees

    No. Quite the opposite.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Romney Marsh Kent England UK
    Posts
    292

    Post

    Thanks Michael I was hoping you were going to say something like that [img]smile.gif[/img]


    Tony

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Osceola, Iowa south central of state
    Posts
    248

    Post

    I think small cell bees are going to be the comming thing. However, i have not raised them yet so my openion is not really worth too much at this time. All I can say is, because there seems to be conflicting openions, it seems wise to me to try both at the same time in the same location with the same care. That is exactly what I plan to do this year. Long story short, ask me my openion in another year or two. As I have heard some small cell people say, just give it a try. Ok, i take that challenge and will do just that.
    Bill

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Osceola, Iowa south central of state
    Posts
    248

    Post

    Oh, and BTW, one way I plan to do that this year is by using the permacomb dipped into wax in order to get the small cell bees quickly. Then after the first few broods are raised, i will put in some foundationless frames for them to draw and grow from there.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Devils Lake, North Dakota
    Posts
    9,123

    Post

    To me SC is a no brainer. Really nothing to lose by going that way and everything to gain.

    Everything I have read points to increased honey harvest with SC. Mainly due to strong healthy populations is my guess.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Casper, WY
    Posts
    526

    Post

    Hi Guys,

    I haven't noticed any difference in production between bees on small cell comb and bees on large cell comb, as long as the comb was clean. See:
    www.bwrangler.com/bee/sunr.htm

    I think much has been speculated concerning bee size , flight speeds, load carrying capacities, foraging preferences, etc. without any real evidence for or agin. Do smaller bees fly faster? If so, how much faster is fast enough? Do larger bees carry more? If so, how much more would make a difference? :&gt

    The real difference concerns the overwintering ability, longevity, health and fecundity of queen and colony.

    From my measurements, there's really not much size difference between bees on either large or small cell comb. See:
    www.bwrangler.com/bee/ssiz.htm

    So, don't worry about the size debate. Go for healthy bees. And keep them healthy by keeping the broodnest clean.

    Regards
    Dennis

    [SIZE=1][ March 11, 2006, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: B Wrangler ][/SIZE]
    Last edited by D. Murrell; 11-07-2007 at 08:49 PM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    597

    Post

    In my experience large bees carry more honey.

    But first of all hive need good pastures and short dintances to fly. Yield is often 3-fold and even 5-fold depending just on pastures. No matter how good are your bees if there are enough nectar in flowers.

    Over crazing often drops the yield.
    .

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Perkasie, PA
    Posts
    1,998

    Post

    B Wrangler,

    Great website. I think I may have to steal one of those images for my desktop.

  13. #13

    Post

    Hi Finman,

    > In my experience large bees carry more honey.
    >

    You say with your experience large bees carry more honey. Please tell us your experience regarding your history with large cell beekeeping verses Small cell beekeeping? How long have you kept bees on large cells and how long have you kept bees on small cells?
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Osceola, Iowa south central of state
    Posts
    248

    Post

    what i want to know is how you know how much each bee caries?????? Ask her??? Weigh her????

    How do you know if the differnce is the queens, or the feild, or WHAT????? I'd ask the bee!!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Clear Spring, MD
    Posts
    2

    Post

    Hi, I am just starting beekeeping this year and reading as much as I can about all aspects of beekeeping. At an Intro to beekeeping class I am taking, a master beekeeper rejected the sc theories, telling me I am reading too much. He also argued that the small cell sizes made perfect homes for African bees and if they came thru they would take over. Am I too ambitious trying to start on small cell as first colonies (I am planning to get two packages on April 8th and introduce them to sc foundation)? Thank you, John

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,598

    Post

    &gt;telling me I am reading too much.

    maybe he's part taliban

    seriously, what you shouldn't do is use small cell and assume the mite problem is taken care of
    you must always assume you have a mite problem and monitor it and decide if anything needs to be done
    I just started last year and I'm going small cell
    maybe it will work maybe not but enough people are getting good result to try it
    read all you can, this forum is a great source of info

    Dave

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,774

    Post

    &gt;At an Intro to beekeeping class I am taking, a master beekeeper rejected the sc theories, telling me I am reading too much.

    You can confuse yourself with the wealth of information available. But how can you read too much?

    &gt;He also argued that the small cell sizes made perfect homes for African bees and if they came thru they would take over.

    I think that position would be very hard to support. If AHB are taking over hives, I seriously doubt they are measuring the cell size.

    &gt;Am I too ambitious trying to start on small cell as first colonies (I am planning to get two packages on April 8th and introduce them to sc foundation)?

    Not at all. It's much simpler to start on it than to change over later.

    As Dave has pointed out, you always need to monitor to see how things are going. Even people using the "standard treatments" need to monitor as they often fail. Don't take it on blind faith that everything is fine. Measure it. Learn to do a powdered sugar roll and use a tray in a SBB or a sticky board on a regular bottom board, from time to time. Try to quantify the problem. You will always see mites if you are looking hard enough. The question is how many and how rapidly is it increasing or is it staying the same.

    [size="1"][ March 14, 2006, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Michael Bush ][/size]
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Casper, WY
    Posts
    526

    Post

    Hi Guys,

    I always thought the Master part of Master Beekeeper meant that a person was proficient at beekeeping. But maybe it means Master as in terms of master and slave. Don't want the slaves getting out of bounds by reading too much :&gt)))

    Nahhh... It still must refer to proficiency. Maybe that Master Beekeeper is just confused and needs to read alittle bit more for himself!

    Regards
    Dennis

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,354

    Post

    No, it only means that someone took a test and got a certificate. Sorta like an MBA. You don't have to have bees or have experience with bees to have a Master Beekeeper Certificate. Just like with an MBA. You can get one before you own or run a business. Like my AAS in Commercial Beekeeping. Which I had before I had a commercial outfit.

    I know plenty of successful commercial beekeepers who wouldn't be able to obtain a Master Beekeepers Certificate. And wouldn't care to either. They're too busy being Master Beekeepers to have time or inclination to take a written test. They don't need to.

    The Master Beekeeper who said that John Brit was reading too much, how did he get to be a Master Beekeeper? By reading, I'll bet. But the Master Beekeeper that I know of from MD has kept bees for quite some time, too. So he would be the exception to my "rule".
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Clear Spring, MD
    Posts
    2

    Post

    It sounds like such an easy choice to start right with small cells, yet even the vendors seem to discourage it. Dadant sells sc foundation, yet they preface it with "Suggested for use by experienced beekeepers only". I was not intending to put down master beekeepers in general and especially not the one I was talking to but just point out that many beekeepers with years of experience do not seem to see the benefits of sc, even though some have used it successfully for years.

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