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  1. #41
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    I did mean to measure the capping time but I wasn't diligent enough and I missed almost all of it--although I can say that the last three cells to be capped were all in the larger section.
    It\'s people! Soylent Green is peeeeople!

  2. #42
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    Maybe I am just stupid because I am just an amature and not a big researcher but I found this artical and it is a REAL SCIENTIFIC paper written in a real SCIENTIFIC format that proves that smaller cell size equals LESS varroa..........

    http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2..._full_text.htm

    So if MR Fischer and MR Bush would kindly comment on this I would appreciate it.....

    Now mind you this was a SCIENTIFIC study that meets MR Fischer's critera for a SCIENTIFIC paper done by SCIENTISTS.......
    You have to stop and smell the roses......but please watch out for my bees.
    www.johnwaynehoney.com

  3. #43
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    not only does it state that it had better varroa resistance it also had better DISEASE resistance as well........that fits with the LUSBY's and what MR Bush has said all along............with all this SCIENTIFIC and not so scientific research at my disposal I think that there is enough PROOF to conclude in my mind that SMALL CELL is the way to help control varroa......but then again I am just a layman......
    You have to stop and smell the roses......but please watch out for my bees.
    www.johnwaynehoney.com

  4. #44
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    > Now mind you this was a SCIENTIFIC study that
    > meets MR Fischer's critera for a SCIENTIFIC paper
    > done by SCIENTISTS.......

    Gerald DeJong is a cool guy, and I would not
    bother to question his work, as he is generally
    "conservative" in his conclusions.

    The problem is that he was looking at AHB.

    AHB have slightly different maturation times
    than the usual Apis mellifera to begin with,
    one of the reasons for their "success" when
    they move into an area.

    While the work is valid, it would be a "stretch"
    to apply the conclusions to non-AHB bees.

    Let me repeat - I am not saying that the
    phenomena does not exist with small-cell bees,
    I am only saying that timing all the stages from
    egg-laying to emergence, and then linking this
    to lower varroa reproduction is still listed under
    the "speculative" heading, as no one has gathered
    good data. The task is merely tedious, not
    difficult.

    Dee Lusby has made so many different claims about
    the impact of small cell that she has harmed her
    own credibility in regard to the one claim that
    might be true. That's a darned shame.

    One thing I can confirm is that the Wooster Ohio
    bee museum has several old foundation mills in
    their collection, and these mills in fact did
    make smaller celled-foundation than is now
    common. I took my micrometer and measured them.
    The hardware is still there for all and sundry
    to examine at their leisure. So, it is true that
    at least some old foundation was smaller than
    it is now, for what that is worth. (Clearly,
    these devices "wear", but not the basic diameter
    of the cell, as you have steel compressing warm
    wax, not a very serious "wear and abrasion"
    condition. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  5. #45
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    >AHB have slightly different maturation times
    than the usual Apis mellifera to begin with,
    one of the reasons for their "success" when
    they move into an area.

    AHB on natural sized cells have different maturation times than EHB on enlarged cells, yes. But that is irrelevant to the discussion of the emergence times of small cell European honey bees compared to small cell AHB. I'm betting they will be identical.

    >While the work is valid, it would be a "stretch"
    to apply the conclusions to non-AHB bees.

    Not much of a stretch if you bother to measure times to emergence for EHB on natural sized cells.

    Basically this study was simply taking small cell AHB and putting them on large cell and measuring how many Varroa infested the cells. The only thing chaging was cell size and the thing being measured was Varroa infestation of the cell before it was capped. Cell size was the only variable. Do you really think the Varroa cared if they were AHB when the moved into the cell? The point of the study is that less varroa infest the smaller cells as opposed to the larger cells. And that's only a small part of this. The other part is the number (from the ones that DID infest the cells) of offspring they produced.

    >Clearly,
    these devices "wear", but not the basic diameter
    of the cell, as you have steel compressing warm
    wax, not a very serious "wear and abrasion"
    condition.

    And even if there was a lot of wear and abrasion the measurement across 10 cells is not going to change at all, only the thickness of the cell wall or the depth of the bottom of the cell.

    I have plenty of old books, ABC XYZ of Beeculture etc. that have cell size measurements for foundation in them. But the existence of the actual mills does corroborate those.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #46
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    >The problem is that he was looking at AHB.

    >AHB have slightly different maturation times
    >than the usual Apis mellifera to begin with,
    >one of the reasons for their "success" when
    >they move into an area.

    Why do they have different maturation times? Is it because they build small cells (4.6-4.9mm) for their brood?

    IF your saying that then you yourself just said that smaller cells equal less time to maturation which equals less varroa reproduction........so break that down..........small cell bees equal less varroa reproduction.........which can equal no treatments for varroa since they are at a stable relationship with the bees...........

    OH THANK YOU MR FISCHER FOR ANSWERING THAT QUESTION ON THE SMALL CELL DEBATE YOURSELF.......BECAUSE COMING FROM SUCH A NOTABLE PERSON AS YOURSELF NOW MAKES IT TRUE......WOOOOOHOOOOOO
    You have to stop and smell the roses......but please watch out for my bees.
    www.johnwaynehoney.com

  7. #47
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    Just a quick point of this study is this short exerp from it....

    "As varroa is more prevalent in the larger European-sized brood cells than in the naturally built Africanized worker brood cells, the use of unnaturally large comb cell size should be re-examined in the light of its effect on parasite levels. Varroa’s preference for larger comb cells could be a contributing factor to the 60% higher infestation rates of adult bees that was found in apiary colonies, which contain both Italian- and Africanized-sized comb, compared to feral Africanized colonies, with only natural-sized Africanized comb, examined in the same region in Brazil (Gonçalves et al., 1982)."
    You have to stop and smell the roses......but please watch out for my bees.
    www.johnwaynehoney.com

  8. #48
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    Jun 2004
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    Jim seems to be carefully ignoring the question of whether or not european bees emerge in shorter times in small cells. It doesn't matter how directly you ask him, he won't answer anything beyond "it needs to be looked at." I thought so too, so I did. I think his careful avoidance is an attempt to get others to do the same as I did...that is, to goad them.
    It\'s people! Soylent Green is peeeeople!

  9. #49
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    > Jim seems to be carefully ignoring the question...

    No, just ignoring the thread itself. Sorry about that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    > to goad them

    Certainly not.
    I don't play such games, as some people are
    motivated to do such work, and some never will be
    no matter what outside influences are imposed.

    If you read what has been posted, I think you can
    see that what is needed has not (yet) been done.

    What is needed is to track individual eggs from
    the exact time each is laid until the time that
    each individual bee emerges, and noting the time
    of things like capping. (Clearly, this work
    screams for a digital camera with a timer taking
    photos at regular intervals.)

    Without this level of detail, you don't really
    know anything, do you?

    So, as to the question, they don't know, and
    I don't know. The rest is an issue of belief,
    one that I cannot address due to the usual lack
    of objective metrics and stable criteria.

  10. #50
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    Mar 2003
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    Mobile, Alabama
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    Darrel,

    A loose translation of the above:

    "While ignoring this thread, I read in the thread that there are beekeepers that believe what they see with their own eyes, even though they have not cleared said observations through me. These people are intellectually inferior to me."
    Rob Koss

  11. #51
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    An interpretation of the above translation:

    "I am perfectly willing to insult others whom
    I have never met, and put words in their mouth
    that are hurtful, all to advance an opinion
    about something that would simpler and easier
    to test. I contribute insults rather than
    something of value, as I have nothing of value
    to offer, yet I hold disdain for the simple
    statement "we don't know yet", and anyone who
    disagrees with me.

    A summary of the translation:

    "I am unable to engage in adult conversation,
    so I will toss around insults, as that is easier."

    To summarize the summary of the translation:

    "I am a mouse, studying to be a rat."

  12. #52
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    Post

    Wow, Jim,

    Not sure why my understanding of what you said was insulting to you. Obviously I misunderstood your meaning. I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything as uncivil as implying that you may be a mouse, or indicate that you may be unable to engage in adult conversation.

    That would have been very impolite, especially since I "have never met" you.

    Maybe you could improve my understanding of your comments.

    I am not sure that you "disagree with me", so you will have to guess again as to the reason for my horrid behavior.

    As to "tossing around insults", well throw in a good dose of condescension, reread your posts over the last couple of years, and take a look in the mirror.

    Hello, pot! I'm the kettle!
    Rob Koss

  13. #53
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    > Not sure why my understanding of what you said
    > was insulting to you.

    Yeah, right. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    > Maybe you could improve my understanding of
    > your comments.

    Its easy - in regard to capping times and
    emergence times, I don't know, and neither
    do you, or anyone else. We don't have good
    data yet. I'm sorry if my refusal to drink
    the Kool-Aid on this issue conflicts with your
    need to believe in something or other.

    It is unfortunate that you made your presumptuous
    and unsolicited attempt to "translate" a very
    clear and simple response to a question asked by
    someone else, but don't try to now pretend that
    you had some intent other than being insulting.

    > ...condescension...

    Many folks reading these posts are new to the
    craft, so we all need to remember that we need
    to explain what we are talking about just a
    little more. If you view doing that as being
    "condescending", that's a personal problem.
    I can't help you with that.

    Gotta put the Palm away now, as it takes two
    hands to pull supers, and I'm going to be busy
    doing that until dark today.

  14. #54
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    Mar 2003
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    We don't have good
    data yet.
    Who is we, and how do you know this?

    I'm sorry if my refusal to drink
    the Kool-Aid on this issue conflicts with your
    need to believe in something or other.
    Does calling a belief in something "drinking Kool-Aid" count as explaining "just a little more", or is it just plain condescending? And I have no need to believe in small cell theory or even in "something or other", so your refusal to "drink the Kool-Aid" conflicts with nothing at all.

    And no pretending at all Jim - my only intent was to let you know how your posts come across. That is exactly what I wrote, nothing more, nothing less. I am not the only person who has pointed out how your posts come across. If finding out how your posts sound to me is insulting to you, "that's a personal problem. I can't help you with that."

    And in all seriousness, best of luck with your harvesting.
    Rob Koss

  15. #55
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    Nov 2004
    Location
    Brown County, IN
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    Post

    As a newbee I've followed this thread with interest. This past Sat. (Jun 25) we had our summer meeting (IN State Beekeepers Assn) and our guest speaker was Dr. Jamie Ellis from Univ.GA. Dr. Ellis' main (morning) topic was SHB, but spoke in the afternoon on the topic of IPM.

    With respect to this thread, I specifically asked Dr. Ellis an open-ended question about small cell and his thoughts concerning its effectiveness with Varroa.

    Summarizing his response, he thought small cell was definitely the way to go because of the shorter brood cycle times which disrupt varroa reproduction. In agreement with Mr. Fischer, he noted that there hasn't been serious, hard-core scientific studies to confirm this, but he felt that the amount of anecdotal and informal studies clearly pointed to shorter emergence times. He noted that even if the reduced times are only about 6 hours, it would be enough to mess up the Varroa cycles. He added that this is being studied and it is only a matter of time before there are published results.

  16. #56
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    Aug 2002
    Location
    Casper, Wy, USA
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    Hi Guys,

    I haven't been back to this topic for awhile. And it's quite surprising how the topic has changed! I went back and reviewed the old posts to see what happened. And sadly enough, I see where I have contributed to this mess.

    Sometimes, I feel just like a little kid, back in school, on the playground. And sometimes I even act like one!

    Sorry Guys
    Dennis
    I once wrangled bees. But now, knowing better, I just let them bee.
    http://talkingstick.me/category/bees/

  17. #57
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    Oct 2001
    Location
    Mason, MI, USA
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    Post

    "I am perfectly willing to insult others whom
    I have never met, and put words in their mouth
    that are hurtful, all to advance an opinion
    about something that would simpler and easier
    to test. I contribute insults rather than
    something of value, as I have nothing of value
    to offer, yet I hold disdain for the simple
    statement "we don't know yet", and anyone who
    disagrees with me.

    A summary of the translation:

    "I am unable to engage in adult conversation,
    so I will toss around insults, as that is easier."

    To summarize the summary of the translation:

    "I am a mouse, studying to be a rat."
    The above sais I do believe that if you do not have any thing constructive to say and not to tear some one down Go be a rat somewhere else. This board is to help others that need or want the help not to rant and rave to try and prove that you are better than all here. I will not argue with Jim Fisher but I can recomend SUSPENSION from this board if the "RAT" continues to degrade this board. The reasons many good people leave the board is because of the "RAT" comments. We do not need people such as this'
    MY thoughts on the subject.
    Clint
    Clinton Bemrose<br />just South of Lansing Michigan<br />Beekeeping since 1964

  18. #58
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    &gt; The above sais I do believe that if you do not
    &gt; have any thing constructive to say not to
    &gt; tear some one down Go be a rat somewhere else.

    Exactly.

    &gt; I can recomend SUSPENSION

    I would not support that. Education is the
    solution. People can't be educated if they
    are shunned, expelled, or whatever. There
    is not reason to silence anyone except a
    "spammer".

  19. #59
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    That still does not give you the right to be so absusive to others. I belive YOU to be a SPAMMER doing this. I do agree on the education part but who gave you the right to be so "RAT" like?
    Education is good but NOT the way your trying to do it.
    Clint
    Clinton Bemrose<br />just South of Lansing Michigan<br />Beekeeping since 1964

  20. #60
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    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
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    Post

    Hey, Jim! Clint was talking about suspending YOU!

    If you wern't "the Bee-Quick guy who gets published in the bee mags now and again" you'd been gone long ago. I've seen people tossed for less antagonizing than you do.
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

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