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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    36

    Question

    I would like to start 4 Carni packages and a couple splits on 4.9 starter strips. I am also planning on using starter strips upstairs in the honey supers.

    Should I use 4.9 strips upstairs too, or does the size of the cells for honey really matter? Do I need to wire the super frames if I am planning on extracting most of it later?

    This is probably a dumb question, but could I move the comb from the first draw upstairs for the bees to store honey in instead of just culling it?

    Thanks for your help.
    don<br /><a href=\"http://www.spokaneclassifiedsonline.com\" target=\"_blank\">www.spokaneclassifiedsonline.com </a>

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,784

    Post

    &gt;I would like to start 4 Carni packages and a couple splits on 4.9 starter strips. I am also planning on using starter strips upstairs in the honey supers.

    &gt;Should I use 4.9 strips upstairs too, or does the size of the cells for honey really matter?

    Might as well. The bees will cheat and build whatever they want anyway. But since I run an unlimited brood nest and no chemicals, I don't have any distinction between honey and brood boxes.

    &gt;Do I need to wire the super frames if I am planning on extracting most of it later?

    I don't. I guess you can if you like. Some have and it seems to work ok. You might consider wiring vertically instead of horizontally so the bees follow the wire down instead of encountering it midway.

    &gt;This is probably a dumb question, but could I move the comb from the first draw upstairs for the bees to store honey in instead of just culling it?

    If you have all the same size boxes, sure. But it's a nice start for another package or split to have some partially regressed combs. Fully regressed is nicer, but anything is a good start.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    36

    Post

    OK, I started my packages with a combination of starter strips, foundationless frames and SC wax. My problem with the wax foundation is that without wiring it, I couldn't keep the darn stuff from collapsing and folding over. I melted old comb to get some wax and then spooned it into the slot to hold the wax in. That worked fine on the starter strips, but it would not hold the full sheets (mediums) in place. So as a last resort I put in one frame of fully drawn comb in the center of the hive. I had no SC comb so I was forced to put my LC comb in.

    Will the LC comb mixed with starter strips and foundationless confuse the bees? Or will they just adjust? I plan on pulling the LC comb as soon as they have other frames drawn and brood in it.

    Thanks for the help.
    don<br /><a href=\"http://www.spokaneclassifiedsonline.com\" target=\"_blank\">www.spokaneclassifiedsonline.com </a>

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,784

    Post

    &gt;OK, I started my packages with a combination of starter strips, foundationless frames and SC wax. My problem with the wax foundation is that without wiring it, I couldn't keep the darn stuff from collapsing and folding over. I melted old comb to get some wax and then spooned it into the slot to hold the wax in. That worked fine on the starter strips, but it would not hold the full sheets (mediums) in place.

    The molten wax should work if you get a bead down both sides and down in the groove. The cleat also usually works if it's up tight enough on the foundation. Embedded wire is helpfu too if you run some horizontally and embed it it will help support the foundation.

    &gt;Will the LC comb mixed with starter strips and foundationless confuse the bees?

    A little. But they often build a variety of different sized cells anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much.

    &gt;Or will they just adjust?

    They will adjust.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    North Alabama, SW Kentucky
    Posts
    1,914

    Post

    Michael didn't mention it here, but he's mentioned in the past that you can make an "X" with the wire in the frame. This seems to me like a reasonable compromise between horizontal and vertical. And you can use the wire holes that already exist in your end bars.
    WayaCoyote

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    36

    Post

    Thanks for the info. I am anxious to see what they come up with but am just feeding them and staying out of their way for a while. How soon should I see progress on them drawing out comb from the foundationless frames?
    don<br /><a href=\"http://www.spokaneclassifiedsonline.com\" target=\"_blank\">www.spokaneclassifiedsonline.com </a>

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    169

    Cool

    I wire the big "X" with the sc wax foundation and in the foundationless frames. I've had no problems with the bees building comb over the wires.

    It is just two wires, one on one side then the other. It sure beats doing 4 horizontal!

    Martha
    Martha

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Gum Bottom, La, USA
    Posts
    90

    Post

    I am new at this, but the foundationless frames I constructed, I but a triangle piece at top(Michael's advice) and put 2 verticle wires and 1 horizontal wire. the ones that the bees have worked are completely full from corner to corner and top to bottom. I could not see any wire.I have put on second deep and in a couple of weeks will see how they fill it. I also have caught a swarm in a deep with ten frames this way and this weekend am going to open it up and check how they are building on it.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    North Alabama, SW Kentucky
    Posts
    1,914

    Post

    Jaydee,
    Congrats on the success,

    How did you get the verticle wires in place? Did you drill holes in top and bottom bars?

    WayaCoyote
    WayaCoyote

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Alpine, NY (near Cayuga Lake)
    Posts
    107

    Post

    &gt;Do I need to wire the super frames if I am planning on extracting most of it later?

    I don't. I guess you can if you like.
    Really? I don't have to wire if I'm going to extract?
    Lesli<br /> <a href=\"http://beeyard.blogspot.com/\" target=\"_blank\">http://beeyard.blogspot.com/</a>

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,784

    Post

    Whether you wire or don't wire you still have to be gentle when you extract. You'll have to be more gentle without any wire.

    If you want to extract without wire, make sure the comb has "matured". Brand new comb is VERY soft. After a couple of weeks it's much tougher. If you're going to extract foundationless you'll have to wait until its connected at least some on all four sides.

    If you are gentle (start slow and work your way up on speed only after most of the honey is out) you can extract foundationless and frames with foundation but no wire.

    If you crank it up too fast, too soon, even with wire, you'll have blow outs.

    I've never tried extracting deeps with no wire, but I've extracted mediums and shallows many times. But Charles Martin Simon, who used to manufacture the "Unfoundation" frames says he has extracted foundationless deeps.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Alpine, NY (near Cayuga Lake)
    Posts
    107

    Post

    OK. Thanks. I'll be using mediums, so I'll give it try.
    Lesli<br /> <a href=\"http://beeyard.blogspot.com/\" target=\"_blank\">http://beeyard.blogspot.com/</a>

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Gum Bottom, La, USA
    Posts
    90

    Post

    Yes, I drilled holes, one on each side and two on top and bottom of frame. I got a call about a swarm at a medical clinic last Friday and I put them in a deep with 10 frames with no wire, just with the angle piece on top.
    This is the first time I have been called to remove a swarm, and being new at this learned a lot with the experience. When they called, I ask how high the bees were. i was told about head high in a tree next to entrance and they needed them gone quickly. I was there within the hour and without a ladder with a deep regular hive, thinking since they are so low they will be easy to get. When I arrived the bees were about fifteen feet up. Lots of people watching, I didn't have time to get a ladder, so I positioned my truck so I could stand on cab and with one hand hold the hive above my head and under the swarm and shake it off with the other. This was such an awkward position I thought all the people watching through the window was going to have a good laugh when I shook the limb, lost my balance and fell. Luckily this didn't happen. About half went in hive and I was able to sit it on my cab facing the front of the truck. A lot of the other bees fell on the hood of my truck with lots flying. There was a lot of bees climbing up my wind shield and up on cab into hive. In about 30 minutes all were in hive(except about 20) and I was on my way home with the bees. I did learn to come better prepared next time. Any advice will be appriciated

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,784

    Post

    First, never believe anyone who calls you to get bees. [img]smile.gif[/img] As you see head high was 15 feet up. A swarm of bees was often sprayed before they called and since they didn't all die immediatly they call you, and fail to tell you they sprayed them. Then they act surprised when the bees are gone or dead when you arrive.

    So, yes, be prepared for anything. SOME of it isn't dishonesty, some of it is adrenline. They are frightened and so they see more bees or closer bees than are actually there.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Gum Bottom, La, USA
    Posts
    90

    Post

    I checked on bees that I caught with a swarm lure about 3 weeks ago in a single deep with ten foundationless frames with a single piece of comb about 4" by 4" tied to one of the frames. Seven of the tenn frames was filled completely and the other 3 about 2/3 way full. Everything looked good. I was afraid they might not build in line with frames since I had made them a little narrow.I had them spaced evenly, on three of the frames they had fudged to one side about an 1/8 inch. All other was good. All frames had been wired with 2 verticles and one horizontal. I put another deep with ten frames on today. This is the best any of my bees have done since I started 2 yrs ago.Thank you for the advice Michael and others

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Warren County, Kentucky
    Posts
    113

    Post

    Are there pics somewhere of how to do starter strips with small cell? My bee mentor helped me get a swarm yesterday. They're hanging out in their swarm box and I've got frames ready but I'm running low on foundation. I'm interested in letting them do it themselves with small cell starter strips (these are large cell bees). But I don't have a clue. Did a search, but no good description or pics.

    I know there are pics here somewhere. Michael has pics of everything. :0)

    thanks in advance

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,784

    Post

    I cut the strips about 3/4" and wax them in the groove with a wax tube fastener. You can wax them in with some melted wax and an old spoon. Or you can nail them (tightly) with the cleat like a sheet of foundation. If you don't get it tightly in it can come out and you'll have a mess. I also like to have either a fully drawn comb in the middle or one frame with a full sheet in the middle to get them in a straight line.

    This is a plain wax starter strip waxed into a frame and the bees have started a comb. The starter strip used to be about 3/4" but the bees have stolen a lot of it off to build the comb. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/ima...arterStrip.JPG
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Warren County, Kentucky
    Posts
    113

    Post

    Cool. A picture helps a bunch. So one 3/4" strip across the top, fastened into the cleat will get them started on the frame straight? (I'm assuming that's what the wax is for--to encourage them to build in the frame rather than all over.) And I assume that they're not done with that comb in your picture and they will eventually connect it to all four sides of the frame?

    I have wired my full sheets of small cell with horizontal wires and a big X. So if I understand correctly, if I want wire, I have to go ahead and do the wire, and then just install this 3/4" piece of wax all the way across the top. None anywhere else in the frame. The 3/4" is not wide enough to reach the wires to embed, so it'll just hang there and the bees will build their comb down from the pressed wax and around the wires. Have I got it sort of right?

    The bee mentor who helped me catch this swarm also gave me a frame of drawn comb he had in the freezer. With some concern I have gone ahead and put this in the hive with the swarm, and four frames of small cell foundation. (It was a BIG pile of bees. Maybe a full size football and a half or three quarters. I'm guessing that's a really nice swarm.) I'm worried about two things:

    1-Is the frame of large cell comb going to cause a problem with my planned regression? Once they are established I'll try to move it out of there.

    2-Can I put the other five frames in the hive with starter strips and they'll go along just fine and keep going when they get to these?

    BTW: I know you say these same things over and over and over to new people who can't find the threads or need it said again or in a different way. I don't know how you have the patience. Thanks for being willing.


    KyBee

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,784

    Post

    &gt;Cool. A picture helps a bunch. So one 3/4" strip across the top, fastened into the cleat will get them started on the frame straight?

    Yes.

    &gt;And I assume that they're not done with that comb in your picture and they will eventually connect it to all four sides of the frame?

    Eventually. But eventually depends on their need to draw comb at the time. Here's a foundationless (angled top bar instead of starter strip) but it's the same principle.

    http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/ima...nlessDrawn.JPG

    &gt;I have wired my full sheets of small cell with horizontal wires and a big X. So if I understand correctly, if I want wire, I have to go ahead and do the wire, and then just install this 3/4" piece of wax all the way across the top. None anywhere else in the frame.

    You can do that.

    &gt; The 3/4" is not wide enough to reach the wires to embed, so it'll just hang there and the bees will build their comb down from the pressed wax and around the wires. Have I got it sort of right?

    Yes. The only thing about nailing it with the cleat as opposed to waxing it in (besides that waxing is easier and quicker once you get started) is that the bees hanging from the wax can pull it loose (as they can with a full sheet of foundation also) if it's not nailed well.

    &gt;The bee mentor who helped me catch this swarm also gave me a frame of drawn comb he had in the freezer. With some concern I have gone ahead and put this in the hive with the swarm, and four frames of small cell foundation. (It was a BIG pile of bees.

    A frame of drawn foundation will help get them in a straight line and give the queen somewhere to lay.

    &gt;1-Is the frame of large cell comb going to cause a problem with my planned regression?

    Probably not much. They might do better without it as far as drawing small cell, but it probably won't confuse them much.

    &gt;Once they are established I'll try to move it out of there.

    Correct. Try work it all the way to one side until all the brood emerges from it.

    &gt;2-Can I put the other five frames in the hive with starter strips and they'll go along just fine and keep going when they get to these?

    Where are the other five frames? Don't you have ten frames in the box now?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Warren County, Kentucky
    Posts
    113

    Post

    Question from Michael:
    "Where are the other five frames? Don't you have ten frames in the box now?"

    No. It was such a big pile of bees I didn't have room to put all the frames in. I had to wet them some to get them to roll out of the swarm box (they can really hang onto screen wire) and I was afraid that shoving them around to get the "pile" thin enough to put the other frames in would hurt too many bees, so they have five frames total, all shoved together in the middle of the box. The drawn comb is in the center frame. I left them alone yesterday so they could get adjusted and I was going in today to put in the other frames.

    Is that bad? There were so many more bees than the packages I put in I kind of didn't know how to handle that many.

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