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  1. #81
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    Joe et al
    To support your assertion that "small cell bees are more healthy than large bees" you need to state some FACTS - not some random quotes taken out of context from various studies and experiments having nothing to do with SC bee health. You may convince yourself and those that "want it to be so" with wishful thinking, circular arguments and irrelevant quotes, but more objective beeks prefer proof.

    Since the genetics of SC and LC bees are identical, it's more likely that SC bees have a healthier lifestyle? If so, are there any studies or direct anecdotal evidence that supports this?

    I plan on trying some SC this year so I hope you are correct.
    Triangle Bees

  2. #82
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    I think small cell has its advantages but, I think you have to have the mite tolerant traits in the bee's for the bees to survive, I have never understood people calling small cell's (natural cell's) because i cant find where it say's (IN STUDIES) what size a natural cell size was, but i still think you have to have the right bee's for anything to work, like i said before my father has a hot hive that he has not medicated or even took the hive apart in 7 years now , all he does is go out and pull a couples frames of honey out of the super, thats it, and thats one of the strongest hives i have seen and there not on small cell, this coming spring im going to suit up and go do an inspection on that hive (when i go back to La.) and pull some drone brood and also a powder sugar test just to see what the mite count would be.
    Ted

  3. #83
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    I have never understood people calling small cell's (natural cell's) because i cant find where it say's (IN STUDIES) what size a natural cell size was

    More than half of my combs are natural cells because there was no foundation and it's what the bees draw. All my top bar hives are all natural comb. Half my frames are foundationless or starter strips. Since that is usually in the range of 4.6mm to 5.0mm I think I can say that size is natural. Since I never see a worker in a 5.4mm cell, I think I can safely say that's not natural. I certainly think I have a right to call comb drawn without coersion of embossing, natural cell size.

    All of the "official" studies have failed to regress. They put the bees on a system where they draw natural comb and it's 5.1mm to 5.2mm and they say that's natural. But they never take the bees from that regression and let them draw natural comb. It's not hard to reproduce, it just takes a little longer to do it twice. And really you shouldl do it four or five times to make sure where it stabilizes, but none of the scientists seem to want to even go to the second step.

    Try it yourself. It's not difficult. Either a TBH, some blank starter strips or make some comb guides for your frames, or if you really want to take it the easy way, just put them in a box and see what they do.

    I would not have been convinced to do small cell if I was not convinced it was natural cell size.

    >i still think you have to have the right bee's for anything to work

    I've noticed significant improvement in mite reproduction using a variety of bees on natural cells. But I am also trying to breed feral survivors because I think we need all the help we can get. Besides the feral survivors seem much more acclimatized to my environment. They cut back and build up at the right times. They over winter in a small cluster on less stores. So I think it CAN help. But I think no matter how good the genetics, it's unfair to put the bees at the disadvantage of large cell comb.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  4. #84
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  5. #85
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    >More than half of my combs are natural cells because there was no foundation and it's what the bees draw. All my top bar hives are all natural comb. Half my frames are foundationless or starter strips. Since that is usually in the range of 4.6mm to 5.0mm I think I can say that size is natural. Since I never see a worker in a 5.4mm cell, I think I can safely say that's not natural. I certainly think I have a right to call comb drawn without coersion of embossing, natural cell size.


    MB, if I take bee's from a normal foundation hive and put them in a TBH what size will they cell draw out? would this be a natural sized cell, now i know if you take regressed bee's and put them in one they will draw out smaller cells right? so i guest my main question would be what is the natural size a bee and cell? what was the size of cells before man had the bee's. that's what i would call natural, if man can make bee's smaller or larger, what is the bee's natural size and what size cell would they make, has anyone ever found a fosilized comb, i know they found a 1,000,000 year old or so bee, but what size was it? thanks I just have been wondering about this for about a year now but havent seen anything scientific yet, have read alot about regression doing better

    >Try it yourself. It's not difficult. Either a TBH, some blank starter strips or make some comb guides for your frames, or if you really want to take it the easy way, just put them in a box and see what they do.

    is this how you regressed the first step, so the bee's will regress by there self this way, will they continue to regress this way?
    Ted

  6. #86
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    <Let’s explore your statement for a moment. How do you purpose to determine the natural levels of OA in your honey so that you will be sure that treatment does not exceed the naturally occurring levels?>

    No plans to, I am #1- Not claiming to be organic and #2) I don’t do any kind of treatments when honey supers are on. I also do not do any type of treatments for 60 days before supers go on.

    <But don’t understand the reasoning behind that they are not found in commercial products, that is it what? Safer? That you are skirting government regulations and illegally using ‘non epa approved methods‘, this makes it ok then, or safer?>

    Well, all you people using Honey – B – Healthy, you have now been advised that using essential oils is not approved for hive use.

    <Do your customers know that there may be traces of non approved pesticides in their honey?>

    Since, I don’t do any kind of treatments when honey supers are on. I also do not do any type of treatments for 60 days before supers go on. So, no there are no essential oils in my extracted honey. But, thanks for worrying about my customers.

  7. #87
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  8. #88
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    >MB, if I take bee's from a normal foundation hive and put them in a TBH what size will they cell draw out?

    Probably about 5.1mm.

    > would this be a natural sized cell

    For a 5.4mm bee, apparently, but for a natural sized bee, no.

    >now i know if you take regressed bee's and put them in one they will draw out smaller cells right?

    Yes.

    > so i guest my main question would be what is the natural size a bee and cell?

    They vary but from what I've measured they run between 4.6mm and 5.0mm. Most in the very center are more in the 4.6 with larger as you move out from the center of the brood nest, usually. Most probably run closer to 4.8mm to 4.9mm out further from the center.

    >what was the size of cells before man had the bee's. that's what i would call natural, if man can make bee's smaller or larger, what is the bee's natural size and what size cell would they make

    There have been measurements taken for centuries. One complicated part is the method of measurment seems to change from time to time. One was a paralellagram. Other methods have been linear and others have been how man in a given size square. The paralellagram is useful because the cells can come out pretty even. A paralellagram don't have to take into account a lot of partial cells. The linear method is the simplest to do. There are x number of cells to y length. The 4.9mm designation is derived by measuring linearly but counting 10 cells and dividing by 10 to get the width of the cell.

    Joe has been quoting a lot of old books. Most from before the enlargment if tranlated to the current method of measuring, comt to come to about 4.9mm to 5.0mm.

    >has anyone ever found a fosilized comb

    It seems to me I once heard of one, but I can't say for sure.

    > i know they found a 1,000,000 year old or so bee, but what size was it?

    I don't know that either.

    >is this how you regressed the first step

    My first try was with 4.9mm starter strips. They drew 5.1mm cells. Unfortunately it was late summer and the mites were already bad, so I tried to save them with Apistan and they all died anyway because they were Apistan resistant.

    My next measurments were from a large cell package that moved into a feeder. The center comb was about 5.1mm. The next comb over (on each side of that primary comb) was between 5.0mm and 4.9mm. The next pair of combs over was about 4.8mm and the next pair over had some cells down in the 4.6mm range up to about 4.8mm. Also the comb spacing on this was as small as 1 1/8" in places and 1 1/4" for most of the combs with brood in them.

    http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/ima...stInFeeder.JPG

    A lot of them I regressed by puttin them on wax dipped PermaComb which came to the equivelant of 4.95mm.

    Here's some of the PermaComb:
    http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/images/BlackQueen4.jpg

    I also started a top bar hive and several hives with blank starter strips at the same time.

    This is a 4.6mm comb on a blank starter strip:
    http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/ima...arterStrip.JPG

    Here are some top bar combs:
    http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/images/KTBHComb.JPG
    http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/images/TTBHComb.JPG

    The next year I started two more top bar hives and started doing foundationless frames.

    Here is a foundationless frame drawn out:
    http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/ima...nlessDrawn.JPG

    I haven't done just one thing, but a lot of experiments at the same time.

    > so the bee's will regress by there self this way, will they continue to regress this way?

    Yes, they will. In order to regress they just need for the bees raised on the smaller cells that were drawn to draw cells and raise bees on those. If you just leave the 5.1mm cells in there they won't regress any further.

    It does seem like some bees (not necessarily divided by race) will build smaller cells quickly and some are not so fast.

    The one package I said moved into the feeder seemed to back up Dee's idea that some of the cell size is not just the size of the bee controling what they build but their memory. Because on that one the center comb was medium sized (5.1mm) but the very next comb, which I'm sure was not drawn by the next generation, was already smaller. This does not always happen this way, so I wouldn't count on it. Sometimes they just build a lot of 5.1mm until the next generation of brood starts building smaller comb.

    Also they don't build smaller cells for honey storage and, of course, the sometimes like to build a whole comb of drone brood.

    Basically, the bees will regress if you let them.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  9. #89
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    -In PA, you do not need to have certification to be able to call your honey organic if less than $5,000 in organic sales.

    Naturebee: I am a little confused. You listed your occupation as beekeeper, but you’re using a $5,000 or less in sales exemption to use the organic label. How is that possible?

    -You need an organic management plan. This plan describes how you manage your bees. You need to describe what you do to ensure that the bees feed on organic nectar and pollen, what you do when you need to feed your bees (the sugar must be organic), how you treat diseases and pests (what do you do about AFB, varroa mites, nosema, etc.), where do the bees obtain their water.

    Who approves the plan and verifies the facts and claims made?

    >>Are you isolated in your bee yards from all outside sources of contaminates?
    Are there any other bee yards within 2 – 3 miles of your yards?
    <Nope>
    >>Is there any pesticide use within 2 – 3 miles of your yards?
    <Nope>
    >>Are there any commercial fertilizers applied to any crops within 2 -3 miles of your yards?
    <Nope>
    >>Are there any genetically engineered crops grown within 2 – 3 miles of your yards?
    <Nope>

    Now your answers here have me confused as well.
    If there are no bee yards / colonies within your yards range, where and how did your hives get mites? Where are the drones coming from for your open mating?

    I must assume that your bees are not kept at your house. You have to share your secret on how you were able to find, control and protect over 28 sq miles of PA range from all farming, livestock, pesticide, fertilizers, GE crops, swimming pools, home owners and all other possible contamination sources.

    What are your bees foraging on? I know Tulip Popular, but that only gets us through early spring.

    I on the other hand aren’t so lucky, even thou the Northern Catskill Forest Pressure is my front yard. I have a camp ground and several resorts, as well as homes with pools, a golf course, fruit trees, raspberry, blue berry, strawberry, and other misc crops within my home yards 28 sq miles of forage.

  10. #90
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    =What the heck does “60 days” have to do with it? Where did you pull that number from? The OA fantasy label?

    No actually as the organic beekeeper, I would have thought that you would have known. As per organic quide lines a hive must be managed for 60 days in an organic manner to be claimed as organic.

    I just happen to use the oils when I first feed in the late winter and then not again till fall feeding. So it is more like 75 days actually.

  11. #91
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    thanks MB, I understand a good bit better now how it works, but tell me one thing more if you would, how for down can you regress bee's?
    Ted

  12. #92
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  13. #93
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  14. #94
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    -I don’t state organic beekeeper as my profession, I am also a musician. Although I make a little money at both they are not my main profession.

    Actually, Your member info states your occupation as “beekeeper” and you claim to be organic. So one could be lead to believe that you are an organic beekeeper by occupation.

    Member Status: Field Bee
    Registered: December 25, 2004December 25, 2004

    Posts: 41
    Location: Derry, PA. USA
    Occupation: Beekeeper
    Interests: beekeeping


    >>>>Who approves the plan and verifies the facts and claims made?

    The PA requirement is as stated above. If you wish you approval of the plan, come and do it yourself.

    You still have not answered the question asked. Does the state approve the organic plan or is it self reliant on the beekeepers honesty?

  15. #95
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    >thanks MB, I understand a good bit better now how it works, but tell me one thing more if you would, how for down can you regress bee's?

    I'm not the one regressing them, they are. But so far 4.6mm seems to be as small as I've seen any significant amount of brood comb. That was with Carniolans on 1 1/4" spacing, standard is 1 3/8". But 1 1/4" is the same as Huber was using in his leaf hive and what the bees seem to make for brood comb spacing when I let them do their own thing. I have done TBHs with no comb guides except one in the center of a five frame nuc and let them space it how they want (they actually space it how they want anyway and will cheat on the guides) and 1 1/4" seems to be the norm for brood comb, although I've seen some 1 1/8".

    Dee is happy with 4.9mm because she wants to be natural enough to handle the diseases and mites but still have everything the same (honey and brood) and be able to extract thick desert honey.

    There's nothing UNnatural about 4.9mm. They often build brood comb that size. But it often varies some too.

    According to Dee the sizes will get more uniform as the bees get stabalized. I haven't seen that yet on mine.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  16. #96
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    Hey, NatureBee you’re not going to believe this but, essential oils and oxalic acid are both allowed or will be under the following:

    Keatings draft - Proposed amendments to the GUIDELINES FOR THE PRODUCTION, PROCESSING, LABELLING AND MARKETING OF ORGANICALLY PRODUCED FOODS

    NOSB Apiculture Task Force Report Draft Organic Apiculture Standards. Compiled by James A. Riddle

    But, what is not allowed under the Organic Rules is to knowingly have pests, parasites, or disease in the hive and not take action. If you need any OA or oils, let me know.

    Oh, one more thing, the radius around your hives is 4 miles for organic, so it is not 28 sq miles, it’s a little over 50 sq miles. Sorry,

  17. #97
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  18. #98

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    Hi All,

    Some guy camped on a mountain wrote;
    >Keatings draft - Proposed amendments to the GUIDELINES FOR THE PRODUCTION, PROCESSING, LABELLING AND MARKETING OF ORGANICALLY PRODUCED FOODS

    NOSB Apiculture Task Force Report Draft Organic Apiculture Standards. Compiled by James A. Riddle
    >

    I say;
    Any rule that allows chemical treatments in a hive of honey bees is by default bogus and only a watered down organic standard, those who respect organic production will not give in to this as Organic. Those that do accept this rule as organic will be fooling themselves and the customers they sell to. Shame, Shame!!!

    The camper on the mountain went on to state;
    > But, what is not allowed under the Organic Rules is to knowingly have pests, parasites, or disease in the hive and not take action. If you need any OA or oils, let me know.
    >

    I say further;
    Joe is taking action by keeping his bees on a clean, natural, and highly bee friendly, functional system that does not need the treatments that this bogus, watered down organic standard allows. If any official from the organic standard police board were to come to inspect Joe's I would venture to say that they would not find detectable amounts of these pests, parasites, or disease in his hives, if they did I am sure there would be something he would do about it that does not put foreign substances in the hives that hold the bees he keeps.

    Joe is doing the right thing for the bees he keeps why are some of you on this list trying to make him out as some bad beekeeper that is doing nothing to control parasites in the hives he keeps. Joe is doing his part of getting off the chemical treadmill and doing a great job of teaching others who care to listen how he is doing it and backing his methods up with references and facts. The present opposition to Joe's rebuttals give no facts that Large Cells are Normal or Natural only that Larger cells are what are being used and that they always have been used. Why don't some one give a real reference for Large Cells being Natural size or that bigger bees bring in more honey? By doing what he is doing he is doing much more for the bees he keeps than those that think they are doing bees a favor by dumping poisons in their hives. Again I say shame, shame !!

    Joe has pointed out many facts and references and answered many questions and has been accused of not answering questions but I see very little reciprocation on the parts of those opposing him on this subject and see that the two major opponents also do not answer questions posed to them by me. What goes around comes around so when will you answer my questions submitted in earlier posts I & M ?!!!
    :confused: :mad: [img]redface.gif[/img]
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  19. #99
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    &gt;&gt;What goes around comes around so when will you answer my questions submitted in earlier posts I & M ?!!!


    Sorry Keith, just got back from my local beekeeping convention. I have only skimmed some of the detail in this post, so cant comment until I have time to read futher. Just letting you know I going to be around later this week.
    Boy, I think we are getting hard feeling towards one another. I guess we left on a bad note last time we chatted, Keith
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  20. #100
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