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  1. #61
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  2. #62
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    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/ima...arterStrip.JPG

    Here is a picture of self drawn comb on a blank starter strip (no embossing) with regressed Carniolan bees and a commercial Carniolan queen. You can see they were using this for brood. The frame spacing was 1 1/4". The cells measure 4.6mm

    Whatever the books say, I see small cell naturally all the time. I use foundationless frames, blank starter strips and even empty frames inserted between two drawn comb. I have two top bar hives which are all self drawn comb and were both started from large cell packages. I assure you 5.1mm is pretty much the upper limit of natural worker comb and more the exception than the rule.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #63
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  4. #64
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    Jan 2005
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    Hamilton, Alabama
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    Note to self. Sometimes the problem with bees is the beekeeper.

    No criticism of others intended, just noting one of the truisms of being a beekeeper.

    Fusion

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Round Top, New York - Northern Catskill Mtns.
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    >>Mountaincamp, OK, I stand corrected! But, the “non commercial treatments” you mention are ingredients that can be found in commercial mite treatments in this and other countries. I admit to being duped, the loophole was crafty enough to fool me to thinking you were organic.

    -Naturebee, you may want to go back again and check your facts again, I have never claimed anywhere that I am organic. I do not use checkmite or apistan, and have not for over 7 years, as I have stated a number of times.
    I have also plainly and clearly stated what treatments I have used, and when they were used. So again go back and check your facts.
    I know of no commercially produced mite treats that use only wintergreen and spearmint oils. Which is all I have used for the last 4 years, except as noted for an OA trickle treatment that I tried this past December.
    I also know of no commercially produced OA solution for drip application. But, it is also my understanding (I will have to go back and find the source) that since OA occurs naturally in honey and many plants, that it is one of the few mite treatments that is permitted under the “organic” regulations, depending maybe on where you are. If anyone else can remember the source, please let me know. Thank you,

    >>I am a strong proponent for truth in advertising. Speaking for myself now, I wouldn’t feel comfortable basing claims on crafty word sculpturing, even if technically sort of true.

    Well, here is where the meat hits the pan. If we really want to get technical, how have you made your organic claim?
    Have you been state certified as organic?
    Are you isolated in your bee yards from all outside sources of contaminates?
    Are there any other bee yards within 2 – 3 miles of your yards?
    Is there any pesticide use within 2 – 3 miles of your yards?
    Are there any commercial fertilizers applied to any crops within 2 -3 miles of your yards?
    Are there any genetically engineered crops grown within 2 – 3 miles of your yards?

  6. #66
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  7. #67
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    >>It seems once regressed, the bees become healthier, this results in better foraging, wintering, mite resistance etc. I don't know why, but it works.

    >>IAN! I said enhancing the traits "that they have", be it suppressed by chemical use or large cell.

    >>Maybe they are just heathier, happier, wiry, high metabolism bees, instead of sickly fat oversized bees. Then again, maybe just being more aerodynamic makes you're life easier if you're a bee.

    >>>>I generally agree, overall health is a factor also. Also a well nourished colony will fly at cooler temps.


    YOu guys are making the assumtions that the "current" sized bees are sickly. Why?

    Bear with me, I am repeating my opinion here,

    My arguement is not over varroa tolerances, and varroa making the "current" sized bees sick, becasue that is obvious. Varroa has decimated the bee stock around the world. I have never argued agains that. I am argueing the fact that varroa aside, the bees regressed or not, are in no better or different in health than the other.

    By simply regressing your current bee stock, you are not going to improve or inhance the bee stocks traits. Thats called selective breeding.
    I cant see the logic that gives you guys the implication that regression makes them healther. By bringing in more pollen doesnt make them a better nurished hive. The bees can only be nurished with the quality of pollen avaliable. Perhaps in areas like yours Joe, where pollen might be hard to hunt down, more pollen inflow is better for the hive, but in areas like mine, pllen flow is not a problem. My "current" sized bees are feeding my hives to their appropriate nutritional needs throughout the year. I can say that with absolute confedence, for my bees have to be in tip top shape to make it through the winters we experience up here.

    So I dont get it,..

    You guys arnt selling me on the idea of regression. I dont need to regress to control my mite poulation, I use other successfull alternative methods, one that has been approved for organic treatmetns in fact. It would be very costly for a producer like myself to totally switch my broodnest over in a matter of four or five years. I run 310 double chamber hives. That is 6200 brood frame to change over. I

    I would bet, that side by side, regressed hive vs a "standard" hive, would not have any differences in outcome of total production, wintering, ect.

    Now if you simply stated regressed bees tolerated mites better. I would be okay with that
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  8. #68
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  9. #69
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  10. #70
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    Sep 2004
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    Devils Lake, North Dakota
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    Sooooooooo, how high do bees fly?

  11. #71
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  12. #72

    Exclamation

    Hi All,

    Here is a link to the information on Size-related Mating Preferences in Honey Bee Drones. For those who find it hard to jump through hoops.

    http://balder.prohosting.com/~starri...eferences.html
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  13. #73

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    &gt;&gt;Sooooooooo, how high do bees fly?

    Haven't honey bees flown up to above the Earth's atmosphere into space? That's pretty high.
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  14. #74
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    Sep 2004
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    Anchorage, Alaska
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    Good one Keith!! They also drew out comb in outer space weightlessness.

  15. #75
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    Jan 2003
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    &gt;&gt;LOL!! Then why a Russian, Grey Caucasian or Italian in the same yard pack different amounts of pollen in the broodnest? Largely genetics and health related.


    Obviously they all have different pollen requirements. It is genetic, but health related? Because one type of bee packs more pollen in thier nest doenst make them any healthier than the other.

    &gt;&gt;Is the quantity of pollen available different for each in the same yard??????

    I dont get what you are trying to gett at. Different hives, different requirements.

    You are pulling at straws here,..
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  16. #76
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    Jan 2003
    Location
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    &gt;&gt;There’s 5 reasons that your estimate is wrong, hope that’s enough for ya.

    Your 5 reasons tell me no more than past documentation of cell sizes wasfrom 4.72 to 5.36 mm.
    Yes, that has been covered many time here. So it relates to colonies being healthier how?

    &gt;&gt;Improved health =‘s traits that are there being more prominent. That’s why breeding is not done with unhealthy colonies, they don’t show the traits as much, healthy colonies show traits. See 5 reasons stated above.


    Again we are caught in a loop. It will be neverending, Just reading your responses make my head spinn. In developing theories, you need proof to back up your statements.

    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;No, I’m arguing ‘overall health’, not mite control.

    THere is proof of varroa tolerances by regressing, but no proof of healthier hives compared to our current sized beestock.

    Anyhow, good luck next year. Let the honey flow continuously :')
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  17. #77
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Hey Keith,

    Last time I talked to you we were argueing over the need to wrap and pack hives, solar gain, blah blah blah. Never did catch how your hives wintered last winter. How did they fair? How was your summer flows this past year?

    My operation wintered 9%. Extreemly well, best I have wintered ever. Went into the spring split great, made lots of increase, but we had a prolonged spring snow, and continued cool weather right to fall. It was the most difficult spring summer and fall season I have ever experienced. Took the hives into winter even par, and stronge. But my summer honey flow suffered. I cant complain, with an average flow I guess(150lbs/hive), but the potential was there for double that. And I spent twice the time gathering and extracting than usual. Anyhow looking forward to next season.
    So long
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  18. #78

    Post

    Hi Ian & All,

    Joe Wrote;
    &gt;&gt;Improved health =‘s traits that are there being more prominent. That’s why breeding is not done with unhealthy colonies, they don’t show the traits as much, healthy colonies show traits. See 5 reasons stated above.

    Ian responded;
    Again we are caught in a loop. It will be never-ending, Just reading your responses make my head spinn. In developing theories, you need proof to back up your statements.

    I say;
    The only proof he needs is in his own success, it would appear to me that you need the proof. You choose not to believe Joe's proof and researchers that you would believe will not do a legitimate study that every one can clearly give complete credence to. The only study that will satisfy both camps would need to be performed more wholly instead of by piecemeal as most all studies up till now has been carried out.

    Joe stated;
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;No, I’m arguing ‘overall health’, not mite control.

    Ian resounded;
    THere is proof of varroa tolerances by regressing, but no proof of healthier hives compared to our current sized beestock.

    I say;
    Healthier by the fact that no crutches, aids, or treatments of foreign substances in unbalance subjected to the colony or super organism were needed or given to have a positive result. Could your bees survive without you I ask all, How high would your bees fly on their own?

    A few beekeepers are keeping bees on the honey bees terms and not on the terms of the keeper, which do you as beekeepers think the bees would prefer?
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  19. #79

    Post

    Hi Ian & All,

    Ian asked of me;
    Last time I talked to you we were argueing over the need to wrap and pack hives, solar gain, blah blah blah. Never did catch how your hives wintered last winter. How did they fair? How was your summer flows this past year?

    I say;
    They faired as I expected them to fair in an unfair situation. I made progress in locating the genetics I am letting the bees show me they have and those that are needed to improve wintering in my local of keeping bees. One colony in particular came through winter really good which became a queen mother for several queens that were mated. My mission will take me several years to accomplish so you need not expect immediate or quick results. Our summer flow was good until a drought continued for far to long and dried any nectar that may have benefited the bees going into winter.

    Ian Stated;
    But my summer honey flow suffered. I cant complain, with an average flow I guess(150lbs/hive), but the potential was there for double that.

    I say and ask;
    Did you subtract the amount of sugar fed in weight from your harvest weight to give a more realistic view of the bees surplus amount. This figure I would be more interested in.

    It is good you feel you did well last year.

    May your bees fly high as well as far and wide, and so forth into the next County, Province, or Borough by swarm or by what ever means the bees can.
    . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska,<br />c(((([ Apiarian <a href=\"http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney\" target=\"_blank\">http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers</a> <a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/\" target=\"_blank\">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/</a>

  20. #80
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