small cell regression

[ron c]

Michael,I intend to start 2 packages of bees on 4.9mm foundation this spring and was wondering about tour mentioning the need to regress further later.how is this done?....Ron

[Michael Bush]

I've tried it several ways. Dee Lusby likes to do them as shakedowns. Basically you take ALL the comb away and put an excluder on the bottom (as a queen INCLUDER) so the queen can't leave and empty frames of 4.9mm foundation. This is best done in the early spring and late summer, but NOT in the middle of the flow. She has certainly succeeded at it, but I think it's a bit too stressful.

I prefer to just keep culling out the largest combs (If they are 5.1mm or so you can reuse them on another regression, so don't throw them away) and replace them with foundation in the middle of the brood nest. Keep moving the larger combs to the outside and inserting new ones in the middle. I pull them when they are full or honey and move them up above the brood nest. That way you eventually swap out all the comb, keep the brood nest from getting honey bound, and end up with small cell brood comb in the brood nest. Your goal should be that the center of the brood nest is all 4.9mm or smaller cells. The outside edges aren't as critical as the core of the brood nest.

You have to keep measuring the comb in the middle of the brood nest to see what you are getting. They will draw as small as 4.6mm and as large 5.2mm for worker brood in the center of the brood nest. It isn't necessary, but from my observation, if you cut the spacers on your frames down to 1 1/4" wide instead of 1 3/8" wide you can put 11 frames in a 10 frame box and the bees will be more willing to draw smaller cells.

[Busuke]

Ok, what is going to happen if you buy a package bees and put them into a hive with no foundations at all? How about if you put them in a hive with flat foundations?

[Patrick Scannell]

Busuke, Last summer I started 4 packages in mediums with even frames containing wax foundation, and odd frames that were foundationless with a beveled top bar. The bees drew beautiful comb in both.

Michael, When is the earliest in the spring that you would put new sc foundation into the center of the broodnest to get regression happening during the spring buildup?

[Busuke]

I was asking about the size of the cells that you get if you put a bunch of bees in a foundationless hive. And by "flat foundation" I meant just a sheet of wax with no cell pattern embedded.

[Michael Bush]

>Ok, what is going to happen if you buy a package bees and put them into a hive with no foundations at all?

If they are large cell bees they will build about 5.1mm worker cells in the brood nest. If they are small cell bees and the frames are on 1 1/4" centers, they will build as small as 4.6mm and as large as 5.1mm for worker brood.

I have done this with blank starter strips, foundationless frames and just regular frames with no foundation inserted between two drawn combs.

I have pictures of some 4.6mm on blank starter strips (flat wax cut into starter strips) and some pictures of foundationless frames:
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/bush_bees.htm

> How about if you put them in a hive with flat foundations?

I have not tried it but others who have were not impressed.

>Michael, When is the earliest in the spring that you would put new sc foundation into the center of the broodnest to get regression happening during the spring buildup?

It depends on how strong the hive is. A strong cluster can take an empty frame in the middle of the broodnest in early spring. A small cluster will have difficulty with it. If the hive is strong, the cluster is large and there is brood in the brood nest, then I'd do it.

[wayacoyote]

Busuke,
to expand on mike's comments regarding the plain wax, (relying on a very weak memory) that was done in history prior to the impinting of wax. I would love to have something to read about that... anyway, from what I have learned from the folks here is that:
1) you can use starter strips, but if they are too long the bees will begin their comb drawing on the edge first. (sounds to me like they prefer to draw their own comb when they get a chance)
2) some bees (ie swarms) really go into comb production and may even work faster without foundation
3) whereas my concern was in wiring the frames, I understand that the bees will drawn down incorporating the wires
4) and they tend to build straighter combs when building between already drawn combs

you also asked about Starting the packages.
In combining the wisdom expressed above (yes your questions are ones I've asked myself) if large-cell (LC) bees that you are intending to regress will draw their first cells to ~5.1 either on SC foundation or on foundationless frames, then why would I want to waste the foundation if it will only be used for initial regression?

[Michael Bush]

>that was done in history prior to the impinting of wax. I would love to have something to read about that

Reprints of the Hive and the Honey Bee are available. I bought mine from Amazon.

Langstroth used "comb guides" which are the bevels we are now using.

[squarehead]

OK I have a ? were do you ordor small cell foundation ? In my looking for foundation I havent seen any menction of cell size am i missing something?

[Michael Bush]

Dadant makes it. Dadant and Brushy Mt sell. it.

http://www.dadant.com/catalog/defaul...0731a&cPath=38

At the bottom of the page.

http://www.beeequipment.com/search.asp

Search for product code 275 or 278 depending on how much you want to buy.

[Klaus Maresch]

Dear collegues,

this year I want to change a greater number of hives - 120 - to small cells. I got them from a collegue who died. What do you think it's the best time - in early summer or later? I habe to change the frames - because this collegue used a very old german system with carniolan bees and in my apiary I prefer to work with Dadant frames and supers and Buckfast bees.

Could you give me an Advice? Sorry for my english, it's a long time when I learned this language at school....

Greetings, Klaus

[Michael Bush]

Die Bienen zeichnen kleinere Zellen, wenn es nicht einen Nektarfluß gibt. Das bedeutet früh im Jahr und im Herbst, in die meisten Länder. Etwas von diesem hängt an ab, das Methode Sie verwenden möchte. Wenn Sie tun mochten, in "shakedowns" und in den vollständigen zu ersetzen Kamm zu zeichnen oder tun Sie ihn langsam.

Translation:
The bees will draw smaller cells when there is not a flow. That means spring and fall, in most locations.

Some of this depends on what method you want to use. If you want to do shakedowns and replace all the comb or just feed in the small cell gradually.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Translation:
The bees will draw smaller cells when there is not a flow. That means spring and fall, in most locations.

Mike,
I thought you normally tell people that they only draw comb DURING a flow?

[Michael Bush]

They draw comb like crazy during a flow and you are right if there is NO nectar coming in they won't draw anything. Unfortunately DURING a main flow they are in the mode of drawing honey storage comb. They are NOT in the mode of drawing brood comb, in the brood nest, when there is no main flow. You can do it anytime. But most of the time you'll have better luck getting smaller cells in the spring or fall than in the middle of a heavy flow.

[Branman]

I've noticed the same things. The frames that were drawn the slowest seem to bet drawn the best. Although something strange seems to be happening to my small cell foundation. The best drawn frames tend to be the outermost frames....I just don't get it...maybe I have some backwards bees [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Michael Bush]

I think it depends on what their intent was at the time they drew the comb. If their intent was to get somwhere to store some honey, or make some drones then they build it bigger, no matter where they happen to be building it. The idea of the map of what size cell is built where is a general rule and happens most often when you aren't feeding empty frames in. It happens most often in a feral hive where they are drawing all the combs and they start in the center and work out.

[Joseph Clemens]

I am "lazy" by nature. I don't like to do anything more involved and time-consuming than is absolutely necessary. My few hives were all on the larger cell polystyrene based foundation (5.25mm). I was using only medium depth supers and had determined not to ever use any chemical means of management for any honeybee pests. When I decided to use the small cell foundation, only 100% beeswax small cell foundation was available commercially. I obtained some and cut it to fit my frames and horizontally wired it into place. In the warmth of summer I replaced brood frames with foundation a few at a time, removing frames with mostly fully sealed brood, moving them above an excluder after shaking all bees off them. I then replaced the empty space with a frame of small cell foundation. The bees never seemed to have any resistance to using the small cell foundation (4.9mm) My hives (12 colonies) are nearly all converted now to small cell plastic based foundation (4.9mm) and are continuing to thrive.

[Michael Bush]

>I am "lazy" by nature.

That's pretty much how I'd do it too. Just start feeding it in as the bees seem ready for it. I like to open up the brood nest a bit anyway to cut down on swarming, so it's what I normally do except I'm using small cell foundation when I do it.

Personally I tried shakedowns and I think it's too much work.

To me the fact that they draw smaller cells off of the flow bettern than on the flow isn't that critical. It's just giving you realistic expectations. Anything smaller than you have is a step in the right directions.

[D. Murrell]

Hi Guys,

I've not found that how bees draw small cell comb relates much to flow conditions. But it has everything to do with broodnest location. See:

www.bwrangler.com/bee/sbro.htm

In fact, my top bar hive bees drew out all of the small cell comb during the height of a major flow!

How would this info apply to a Lang hive? The bees like to construct the small cell core area of the broodnest close to the entrance. They only like about 40% of the core area as 4.9mm or less. And they taper cell size from the combs attachment to the bottom of the comb, unless the comb is very shallow.

So, I would draw out small cell foundation in the bottom box. And don't expect to get more than 5 or 6 combs of usable small cell comb from any hive.

Regards
Dennis

[Robert Brenchley]

My approach has been shakedowns for the first stage using 5.1mm foundation; this was a nightmare as the bees reacted badly, but it resulted in comb being drawn at 5.1-5.2mm. After this, they were able to draw 4.9, and I could just stick a box of this on top of the broodbox and get it drawn, not perfectly, but well enough. The earlier in the season you do this the better. Once you have some boxes drawn, a quick way to downsize a colony is to put a box of 4.9 on top of the existing broodbox, wait till the queen is laying in it, then put the original broodbox above an excluder, with the queen in the lower one. Once again, the earlier the better, as the queen appears to be more likely to transfer willingly while the broodnest is still expanding.