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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,212

    Post

    I am considering expanding to raise small cell bees and sell 5 frame nucs of 4.9mm bees in the spring to be picked up in Greenwood, Nebraska. It will, of course, take me until at least the spring of 2004 to have any for sale, but I'm curious is there is anyone out there who would be interested in them?

    My theory is if you start with five drawn frames of bees in an established nuc in April or May, you should get a harvest by fall.

    Also, related to that, I will be needing a lot of bees this spring to do this. Is there anyone within 500 miles or less of me (between Omaha and Lincoln Nebraska) who would have live established hives for sale? Or would sell me shaken swarms. I could bring the equipment and we could shake them down.

    And even better would be someone selling bees raised on 4.9mm foundation.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    crown point, NY, USA
    Posts
    971

    Post

    I am considering expanding to raise small cell bees and sell 5 frame nucs of 4.9mm bees in the spring to be picked up in Greenwood, Nebraska. It will, of course, take me until at least the spring of 2004 to have any for sale, but I'm curious is there is anyone out there who would be interested in them?

    reply:

    Micheal, this is something I plan on also. But it may be in 2005 before I'm ready. I would like a good sphere of infuence for mating and the bees very, very well locked into the 4.9 sizing. Which should put me at year # 5. People will always buy bees. The question is will they want dope free bees that can survive. You will also be responsible for there education on how to go about establishing 4.9 colonies. Yet dope free colonies that survive should get a good price also. I would be selective on who I sold too.

    Just make sure you allow enough time to properly get the bees regressed.

    Clay



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Drums, PA, USA
    Posts
    331

    Post

    am considering expanding to raise small cell bees and sell 5 frame nucs of 4.9mm bees in the spring to be picked up in Greenwood, Nebraska. It will, of course, take me until at least the spring of 2004 to have any for sale, but I'm curious is there is anyone out there who would be interested in them?

    I have had similar thoughts. I agree with Clayton too. People need to be educated about what you have done, and realize all the work it took to get the bees were they will be. And then and only then will the price be justified..

    ------------------
    Dale Richards
    Dal-Col Apiaries
    Drums, PA

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,212

    Post

    This is all true. I am assuming I can get a premium price and that the people willing to pay the price know what it is they are buying. But if I was advertising, I'd have to sell the whole 4.9mm cell size and the concepts involved. You are also right, I should put together an informational brochure to explain managment. It won't do a lot of good to add a bunch of 5.4mm frames to a 4.9mm hive.

    I didn't expect to have a lot of them to sell by 2004, but I thought I could have some.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Elizabeth, CO,
    Posts
    20

    Post

    Michael,I would be very interested in buying some small cell nucs from you. Send me an email if you would and we can discuss.

    Thanks

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, United States
    Posts
    397

    Post

    Hi Michael, Clayton, Hook and all

    Just for the record, deposits on "clean" 4.9mm breeder queens start at $200 with $100 deposit. (have receipts to show)

    Also broodnest conversion packages have gone out on 4.9mm clean comb with queen, minimum 3 full frames layed up brood, rest honey and pollen $100-$150 and some over $300 depending upon traits of bees i.e. colour.

    This was when honey was still .50 lb and regular packages were $30.

    Now with scarcity starting,honey tripling will be interesting to see where things go, i.e. pollenation pricing and regular packages/nucs from run-of-mill enlarged and often contaminated (chemicals/drugs, etc) stock. For things will be getting short all over.

    Clean market is finally starting.

    Sincerely,

    Dee

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,212

    Post

    >Hi Michael, Clayton, Hook and all
    Just for the record, deposits on "clean" 4.9mm breeder queens

    What exactly is your definition of "a "clean" 4.9mm breeder queen?"

    >Also broodnest conversion packages have gone out on 4.9mm clean comb with queen, minimum 3 full frames layed up brood, rest honey and pollen $100-$150 and some over $300 depending upon traits of bees i.e. colour.

    This is about what I though the market would be.

    >Now with scarcity starting,honey tripling will be interesting to see where things go, i.e. pollenation pricing and regular packages/nucs from run-of-mill enlarged and often contaminated (chemicals/drugs, etc) stock. For things will be getting short all over.

    It will be interesting.


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,212

    Post

    Just to throw the idea out, my plan was to to split the hives into nucs in the late summer or fall and overwinter them in a conodominium configuration by making a row of 5 frame nucs with double screen boards and stack them several nucs high. This way the queen would start laying as early as she likes in each of these nucs and the bees would be nicely settled as a hive when I sell them.

    Also, one of my problems is that I have no clean wax to make foundation nor do I have a foundation press. Would anyone out there be willing to sell me some "clean" 4.9 foundation? All I have is the Dadant 4.9mm foundation.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,212

    Post

    Questions for Dee Lusby:

    >Just for the record, deposits on "clean" 4.9mm breeder queens start at $200 with $100 deposit. (have receipts to show)

    Dee, could you please define a "clean 4.9mm breeder queen"?

    >Also broodnest conversion packages have gone out on 4.9mm clean comb with queen, minimum 3 full frames layed up brood, rest honey and pollen $100-$150 and some over $300 depending upon traits of bees i.e. colour.

    Dee, Could you please define a "broodnest conversion package"? Is this 10 frames or 5 frames or 20 frames?

    Dee, do you know of any source for "clean" wax or foundation? The only source I have for 4.9mm foundation is Dadant. I would also like to find some "clean" wax for making blank foundation (no embossing).

    Thanks.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    crown point, NY, USA
    Posts
    971

    Post

    Hi Micheal,

    do you know of any source for "clean" wax or foundation? The only source I have for 4.9mm foundation is Dadant. I would also like to find some "clean" wax for making blank foundation (no embossing

    reply:

    Go to foundation & mill makers here at beesource.com under bees and supplies. Check with Roger White. Also other 4.9 foundation producers may have clean wax too. You will probably have to import.

    Clay


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, United States
    Posts
    397

    Post

    Hi all

    Michael Bush wrote:
    Questions for Dee Lusby:
    >Just for the record, deposits on "clean" 4.9mm breeder queens start at $200 with $100 deposit. (have receipts to show)

    Dee, could you please define a "clean 4.9mm breeder queen"?

    Reply:
    I get asked this alot, but not by run of the mill beekeepers. Normally commercial beekeepers and older ones at that.

    What they are looking for are queens who have never been in contact with chemicals, drugs, essential oils and acids in this case. It also means for several generations and with outbred queens for maximum brood variability.It also means offspring watched and screened for uniformity of subfamilies and subfamily sizing.


    >Also broodnest conversion packages have gone out on 4.9mm clean comb with queen, minimum 3 full frames layed up brood, rest honey and pollen $100-$150 and some over $300 depending upon traits of bees i.e. colour.

    Dee, Could you please define a "broodnest conversion package"? Is this 10 frames or 5 frames or 20 frames?

    Reply:
    I am talking 5 frame nucs here with a minimum of 3 full frames of layed up brood with laying queen. ONe frame of good honey/pollen. Last frame optional, empty drawn 4.9mm foundation preferred.


    Dee, do you know of any source for "clean" wax or foundation? The only source I have for 4.9mm foundation is Dadant. I would also like to find some "clean" wax for making blank foundation (no embossing).

    Reply:
    How much you talking about?

    Regards,

    Dee A. Lusby


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,212

    Post

    1000 sheets of clean 4.9 foundation would be nice. 50 pounds of clean wax would be nice. I'm not sure how much I'll need in the long run, but in the long run I hope to have my own.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Virgin, Utah USA
    Posts
    7

    Question

    Hi everybody, I would be happy if anyone would start producing smaller bees. I have tried Bolling bee, but it seems that he is short handed and it is unclear whether they will have bees this year. I am about to give up the search and regress my own. Does anyone have any other ideas of where ready made small bees could be had (2-3 nucs)? All my equiptment is clean and ready. . . . . . .

    Thanks for all the great info, I have enjoyed reading the discussions,

    Pedro

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Virgin, Utah USA
    Posts
    7

    Post

    P.S.

    My location in the post is in error, I have moved and am now in Southern Utah.

    Pedro

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Post

    My goal is to have some by spring of 2004. Probably not a lot though. And they would be FOB here in Eastern Nebraska, probably too far for someone in Utah.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,079

    Post

    My problem is that there are no feral colonies and only one commercial beekeeper within 200 miles and when he ships his to pollenation, all honey bees disappear, so I have no where to get bees except to have them shipped in. So my conclusion is that I will have to do all my regression with packages and existing colonies. I have nowhere to get 4.9 bees, its that simple.
    But I wanna be selling them someday.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Enfield,Ct.
    Posts
    470

    Post

    I would someday be interested in buying small cell bees,but I am somewhat confused by this thread and have a few questions.
    What exactly is a "small cell bee"?
    Is it a bee that was raised in a small cell?
    Or a bee that was raised from an egg that was laid by a queen which in turn was raised from a small cell egg? Or both?
    Is this "small cell" trait inherited or the result of the size of the cell?
    Will a conventional sized queen lay eggs in small cells(ie.4.9)and produce "small cell" bees?
    Dee, You speak of "out breeding" and seem to attribute some of your success to genetic traits acquired from your native(feral?) population.Do you think that other races can be regressed with the same dope free results?
    Clay,I believe you raise Carniolans.Are these what you have regressed?(My hives are NWCs and Rus X Carn.I'm going into my 3rd year with just a single apistan treatment per year,fall.No menthol,oils,acids,TM,or shop towels.I've got varroa,But as of 1/16 I still had bees.
    You others out there who are having success,what races are you using?How much does genetic material from "survivor"stock fit into the equation?
    I am somewhat new to this forum,and I apologize if this material was discussed in previous posts.I've read back about 18 mos. worth and although some of this was mentioned ,I still had these questions.
    Thanks,Jack

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,212

    Post

    >What exactly is a "small cell bee"? Is it a bee that was raised in a small cell?
    Or a bee that was raised from an egg that was laid by a queen which in turn was raised from a small cell egg? Or both?

    "Small cell" is not a genetic thing. It's just a bee that was layed, hatched and emerged from a small brood cell, for our purposes, a 4.9mm cell size.

    >Is this "small cell" trait inherited or the result of the size of the cell?

    It's just a result of the cell size being what the bees would have built for a brood nest if we had not given them the "standard" large cell foundation.

    >Will a conventional sized queen lay eggs in small cells(ie.4.9)and produce "small cell" bees?

    Yes. But convential sized bees will not draw small cells. They will, if given small cell foundation draw smaller cells (5.1mm to 5.15mm) and those bees will be smaller. If those are given small cell foundation they will draw smaller cells etc. This is why it is advantageous to just buy small cell bees. It saves going through the regression to get them living on small cells.

    >Do you think that other races can be regressed with the same dope free results?

    There is research on varroa reproduction in small cells and it shows they do not reproduce well in them because there is not room in the cell for them to reproduce. There is also the reasonale hypothesis that the trachea on small bees is too small for the tracheal mites. The race is, I think, also a contributing factor, but not necessarily the only factor in small cell being effective.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    crown point, NY, USA
    Posts
    971

    Post

    Hi,

    Clay,I believe you raise Carniolans.Are these what you have regressed?

    reply:

    Yes. I keep a carnie type bee many/ most are not pure. A few yellow type bees too. I keep that which survives. I breed for what lives but I shall be selecting by color soon via incubator.

    How much does genetic material from "survivor"stock fit into the equation?

    reply:

    It factors in about 1/3 of it. There is a selection process that occurs and it is different for everyone. Some have lost 30% all the way to 90%. But those that get 4.9mm bees to the third season seem to have bees that explode. I don't want anyone to think that it is easy and that there is no risk or loss as there is. As for race of bee, I don't think its that important to draw 4.9, it is just choosing a bee that is good in ones area and matches ones climate. There is alot to small cell beekeeping (alot the same as general beekeeping). Too much can be said. If you have specific questions just ask. Dennis, Dee, Micheal,others, or myself will answer the best we can. Also consider joining biobee list, organic bee list too as most talk on small cell goes on there.

    Clay

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,079

    Post

    Could you explain about the "explode" part a bit more?

    Sol

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