Thread: Positioning drawn combs and New Foundation for Good Alignment

1. I look forward to hearing what you find out.

2. Dee -

So the "no" reply is in regards to "precomb" but yes to pheromone vial and lids from swarm bait hives. Okay, We'll wait for film to see more details. Having looked again over the comb from a swarm cut-out in eaves, I did find another cell position.

Is this the cell orientation you are seeing with the 4 rhombs at the cell bottom?

Regards,
Barry
Last edited by Barry; 04-18-2011 at 07:01 PM. Reason: fix link

3. &gt;Is this the cell orientation you are seeing with the 4 rhombs at the cell bottom?

This is a great picture! And it shows where the three pieces in the bottom come from. The are from the cell on the opposite side. This is the mystery that I don't understand. The "Y" on this center comb must not be from the shape of the opposite side (as it is in all other combs) or it would have to be reversed on the other side. If it is indeed not reversed on the other side then both sides must be lined up and it's from the shape of the bottom of the cell. I would be really interested in filling a piece with plaster and then doing a cross section of it to see how the opposite sides line up. Looks like I'll have to wait for next summer to get any. I'll have to start some on plain wax strips and see what they do.

4. Not that I have a better plan with current foundation than you are already suggesting, but do you think the bees orient on this double sided comb? If so, don't you think they will be better oriented if there was one? What would happen if you lined up two embossing wheels so the front and back were aligned? Would it just make the wax thicker in the bottom of the cells? Would it be the same as this center comb? Also, what if you put a double sheet of foundation in the center frame? What would happen if you did Housel positioning and put a blank, not embossed starter strip in the center? Would the bees want a center comb enough to build one? For answers to these and other interesting questions, stay tuned to this board!

[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited October 17, 2002).]

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Michael wrote:
Not that I have a better plan with current foundation than you are already suggesting, but do you think the bees orient on this double sided comb?

Reply:
Yes, seem to very well from what I have seen so far.

If so, don't you think they will be better oriented if there was one? What would happen if you lined up two embossing wheels so the front and back were aligned?

Reply:
Yes, probably better if there where one, but also finding it not necessary with imaginary center positioned.

Already looked at the possibility of aligning up to embossing wheels as I have more then one mill here I use. It is a no-go thing that takes labor and still not imprinted right.

Would it just make the wax thicker in the bottom of the cells? Would it be the same as this center comb?

Reply:
Both. Thicker and not the same. already looked.

Also, what if you put a double sheet of foundation in the center frame? What would happen if you did Housel positioning and put a blank, not embossed starter strip in the center? Would the bees want a center comb enough to build one?

Reply:

With the lid I froze and by the way I now have another in the freezer. The first with three combs and the second with 5 combs hanging down from the lid showing the center alignment, the Y is not exactly positioned the same as I wrote after talking to Michael on the center positioning of Ys down on both. This was because darkened comb was looked at and with the sides facing in we assumed the bees centered with the middle with Ys down on each. But I posted already here I got and see some center combs with blanks and Ys laying with mouths on tails or 4 rhombs.These are bees trying to go with a center positioning, but not actually quite there.

Now the two I got in freezer now are "perfect" and with Ys, and not 4 rhombs, and are non-directional and same on both sides for the way the bees use the cells, with roofs and ledges, Michael.

The center comb is complete opposite to the other combs positioned by 90 degrees and answers the claim that some see the parallel walls differnet in position, for the position is the same as claimed seen facing another way by others.

But they are not talking center frames, but they are noting the change in the parallel walls for what they are seeing, which I find strange.Yet I can see this happening as in cutting out the combs and not watching the Ys and where cutting from, it is easy to lose the center frame, especially if not noting it to begin with, and it can then be placed elsewhere in the colony in any position for it is non-directional and universal.

So simple the way the bees solved it Michael.

You can easily have the center frame for your bees. That way you can have say 10 combs or frames in broodnest and also 9 frames or combs in the honeysupers if this is what you want. Or just use 9 or 11 frames or still with imaginary just use 10.

All the while just position with "Housel Positioning" for the comb/frame alignment to keep the bees less stressed and happy and not burring and overlaying combs, bulging combs etc.

Michael simply do a 90 degree with your foundation and look. It makes it non-directional. It makes a center comb! Then cut foundation and use for whole frames to start! It's so easy.

I have seen several now this way now that I looking, but have saved two in freezer. Mainly because in cutting out ferals you get cut lines on all sides and the two I saved do not have this.This way no one can say I cut and turned the comb for it is hanging perfect with the combs from the lids and the center is so strikingly different but the same and non-directional.True center combs and white wax and uniform cell size and small and just beautiful to look at.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby

[This message has been edited by Dee A. Lusby (edited October 20, 2002).]

6. Thanks for the info.

So the center comb has a flat side at the top and bottom instead of a peak and a valley? That's what I get if I rotate a piece of foundation 90 degrees. And then the "Y" is neither right side up nor upside down, it is cocked on an angle.

Anyway, I just finished doing your standard Housel positioning on all of my hives. I've been waiting for a nice warm day when I wasn't at work all day. It was a bit tricky when sometimes the comb wasn't full all the way across or it was really thick on one side and thin on the other and one needed to be switched, but I juggled them around until it all came out right.

I also had some weak hives and I put them on top of a double screen over a strong one. We'll see how that works.

In the spring I still think I'll make some blank sheets (not embossed) and do starter strips on some new hives and see what they do.

Also I have a three frame observation hive. I think If I put a blank sheet in there they will have to think it's the center if the hive is only one frame wide.

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Michael wrote:
So the center comb has a flat side at the top and bottom instead of a peak and a valley?

Reply:
Yes, the tail of the Y splits the center of the cell horizontal with the top vearing up and out for a slanted roof and the bottom ledge vearing down and out for a slanted ledge. the Y goes off to the side and becomes somewhat neutral.

That's what I get if I rotate a piece of foundation 90 degrees. And then the "Y" is neither right side up nor upside down, it is cocked on an angle.

Reply:
Yes, it is laying down and the parallel walls then become horizontal instead of vertical, like you sometimes hear written in old books. But they do not talk of where these odd combs sporadically seen are placed within the structures of the comb and broodnest of the bees themselves.

Anyway, I just finished doing your standard Housel positioning on all of my hives. I've been waiting for a nice warm day when I wasn't at work all day. It was a bit tricky when sometimes the comb wasn't full all the way across or it was really thick on one side and thin on the other and one needed to be switched, but I juggled them around until it all came out right.

Reply:
This is good. I think they will overwinter better for you for they will not one side and then get starved for too big a gap to cross to get to honey on the other side maybe. They should have more freedom to pull stores of pollen and honey from all directions now.

Also if condensentation occurrs and then it freezes, it will be to the walls more and they will be in the center more away from that.

I also had some weak hives and I put them on top of a double screen over a strong one. We'll see how that works.

Reply:
That should work fine with the heat from below helping to warm the weaker ones above. The only thing to note and watch here will be the tendency of the upper weaker to brood more and need thus more stores!! But it is more easily gotten to to feed and help. Normally by spring, the weaker on top ketch up in strength with the bottom ones doing most of the heating work.

In the spring I still think I'll make some blank sheets (not embossed) and do starter strips on some new hives and see what they do.

Reply:
They should draw comb fine and you will have enjoyment in watching them.

Also I have a three frame observation hive. I think If I put a blank sheet in there they will have to think it's the center if the hive is only one frame wide.

Reply:
May and may not. While I am finding the center in many hives now I looking, it is not in all, but it seems to be running 50/50 for the most part. Anyway I hope they do it for you and you get to see it. If they do they will either be in a learning mode or do it perfect. Hope it's the perfect one!

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby

8. Hello Dee and Everyone,

Would a front rear orientation be seen on the center comb?

Dennis
Thinking an elephant must be like a tree:&gt; )

Dee wrote:
&gt;The center comb is complete opposite to the other combs positioned by 90 degrees and answers the claim that some see the parallel walls differnet in position, for the position is the same as claimed seen facing another way by others.

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Location
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Dennis wrote:
Would a front rear orientation be seen on the center comb?

Dennis
Thinking an elephant must be like a tree:&gt; )

Reply:
Explain what you mean by this please. What is a 'front rear' compared to an elephant?

Sincerely,

Dee A. Lusby

10. The blind men and the elephant story is an old Buddist proverb (once written down by Rudyard Kipling and others) Here's a link to the gist of it. http://www.co-intelligence.org/blind....html#buddhist

The point is each blind man has a hold of one little piece of the elephant but has not idea of the whole thing. They all think they know what an elephant is, and one thinks it's a tree.

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