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  1. #21

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    This is my first season wintering in 8-frame singles. So far everything looks really good. I have a few in the field and a few in a cellar house.

    I would agree that they seem to fill out the whole box, covering 6-7 frames of 7 total.

    DD seem to spread upwards in Jan and Feb and occupy 3-4 frames in both boxes. Though they seem to use most of the feed in the lower box before moving up.

    In my experience, open space in an 8-frame DD in the fall is bad news. They need all of the space filled with honey with a frame or so of brood. Otherwise they just don't have enough feed. Also make sure they have been plugged out of the upper story. Otherwise they move up too quickly and starve in Feb-March.

    I have used most races of bees and they all seem to winter well in 8-frame, even Italians. Which are heading some of the singles this winter (MN Hyg. and Wootens.

    "They would give a hive nothing but drone comb or nothing but worker comb. The end results were still the same."

    If they had nothing but worker comb were did the drones come from?

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh PA
    Posts
    399

    Post

    Thanks guys, for clearing up sooo many doubts...

    So basically double deep of 8 frame is eough space to overwinter on as compared to 10 frame double deep, but they really have to pack all of that space. I was thinking of running 3 deeps of 8 frame to give them total 24 frames instead of 16. Is that ok in a climate as ours(PA)? or is that 3rd deep really not needed?
    Also it would be easier to checkerboard the hive in spring if they still have honey in the 3rd deep(top)..
    any inputs?..
    There is no greater satisfaction than the satisfaction of a job well done.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Post

    New question! If you are going to cut down 10 frame to 8 frame, what should the inside width of the box be?
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  4. #24

    Post

    Outside dimensions vary, I prefer 14".

    My experience wintering in 3 stories. Lots of honey with little need to feed in spring. +/- you don't have do late spring feeding but then you don't get to stimulate them to raise more brood, earlier.

    They also seem to "chimney" more and leave honey behind.

    They are also a little harder to get them to "plug out". If you have a good fall flow that might not be as much a problem. Otherwise they have huge clusters that occupy two stories, with empty comb. There is probably as much honey in a DD as a 3-story in this scenario. Which leaves you in the same position as a DD.

    I try to leave 10% with three stories so I have extra honey to feed in the early spring. If you don't watch them they move up into that 3rd story and consume your feed honey. If an intended 3 story hive is not plugged out of the second story by mid Sept I condense down into two.

    My $0.02

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,316

    Post

    >If they had nothing but worker comb were did the drones come from?

    They gave them nothing but worker foundation in some of the hives and nothing but drone foundation in some of the hives. ALL the hives reworked enough foundation into what they needed to do what they needed to do and ended up with the same proportions of drones to workers. The ones with drone foundation had more drone comb. The ones with worker foundation had less drone comb. But they all had virtually the same number of drones.

    >New question! If you are going to cut down 10 frame to 8 frame, what should the inside width of the box be?

    Outside is what I'd measure. Mine are all 13 3/4" simply because Brushy Mt., who seemed to be the only manufacturer with any assortment of eight frame accessories for years, used that size. Now Mann Lake and Betterbee have 14" equipment.

    I guess I'll stick with 13 3/4". You could compromise and make it 13 7/8" and you could probably get by with mixing that with either 13 3/4" or 14" without too many problems.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Tomhannock NY
    Posts
    238

    Post

    Michael Bush writes:
    Outside is what I'd measure. Mine are all 13 3/4" simply because Brushy Mt., who seemed to be the only manufacturer with any assortment of eight frame accessories for years, used that size. Now Mann Lake and Betterbee have 14" equipment.
    Matt writes:
    I don't know about Mann Lake, but BetterBee uses 7/8 thick boards as oppossed to the 3/4 that most others use. So the inside would be the same.
    Its between you and your bees. L. Connor

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,316

    Post

    But the inside should really (to match 10 frame standard boxes) be 12". With a 13 3/4" box it's 12 1/4". With a 14" box (with 3/4" boards) it's 12 1/2". With a 14" box with 7/8" boards it's 12 1/4" again. But as long as it's not less than 11 3/8" inside it will hold eight standard 1 3/8" frames fine with a 3/8" beespace on the outsides of the outside frames. That's 12 7/8" OUTSIDE with 3/4" boards to make a minimum sized eight frame box.

    There is considerable excess space in all eight frame boxes I've seen.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh PA
    Posts
    399

    Post

    I'l ask again..
    Are two 8 frame deeps enough for southern pennsylvania(pittsburgh area) for overwintering or is it advisable to use the third deep on top? (two 10 frame deeps are the norm around here i.e 20 frames, so trying to even out with 24 frames in 3 deeps instead of 16 in two 8 frame deeps)


    also MB eight 1 3/8 frames add up to 11 inches so do we need to leave some space on the outside of the outer frames or not? in other words how did you get 11 3/8 inner dimensions?
    please bear with my stupid questions a new bee here [img]smile.gif[/img]
    There is no greater satisfaction than the satisfaction of a job well done.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,316

    Post

    >Are two 8 frame deeps enough for southern pennsylvania(pittsburgh area) for overwintering or is it advisable to use the third deep on top? (two 10 frame deeps are the norm around here i.e 20 frames, so trying to even out with 24 frames in 3 deeps instead of 16 in two 8 frame deeps)

    Two eight frame deeps is four frames short of two deeps. I'm not from there. My guess is, yes, it should be fine if it's pretty well stocked with stores.

    >also MB eight 1 3/8 frames add up to 11 inches so do we need to leave some space on the outside of the outer frames or not?

    Always.

    > in other words how did you get 11 3/8 inner dimensions?

    If you take 1 3/8" frames and put them in and figure that half of the bee space comes with each frame (because of the spacers) then that means you need a minimum of half of that on each end (3 1/16") for a total of 11 3/8". I'd crowd all of the frames in the middle and leave the excess on the outside.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh PA
    Posts
    399

    Post

    Thanks MB [img]smile.gif[/img]
    There is no greater satisfaction than the satisfaction of a job well done.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Franklin, IN
    Posts
    148

    Post

    I'm thinking of using 8 frame mediums in my small operation. How about pros and cons of making 10 frame boxes but using a filler instead of 2 frames? That way they could be switched to either and would fit with standard equiptment.

    leamon

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,316

    Post

    >I'm thinking of using 8 frame mediums in my small operation. How about pros and cons of making 10 frame boxes but using a filler instead of 2 frames? That way they could be switched to either and would fit with standard equiptment.

    Using followers is a common practice. Even more common in the past. It will make the box a little lighter, but there are more parts to buy/make and more to mess with and the weight I want to get rid of is what is furthest from my body.

    Using follower boards will work fine if that's what you want to do. I prefer the eight frame boxes with nine 1 1/4" wide frames in them.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Midland, Michigan
    Posts
    75

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    Michael Bush: "I prefer the eight frame boxes with nine 1 1/4" wide frames in them."
    The standard frames have 1 3/8" wide end bars and 1 1/16" wide top bars. For your nine-frame-in-an-eight-frame box configuration, you shave the end bars down to 1 1/4" wide. The total width of the nine frames is then 11 1/4" wide, leaving (in your 13 3/4" box, 12 1/4" inside) 1 inch to spread between the 10 gaps between walls and frames, an average of 1/10". This is too small to be a bee space. Do the bees fill it up with propolis?
    I assume you leave the lower part of the end bars at 1 1/8" wide. This totals to 10 1/8 inches for the nine frames, leaving a total space between the frames and walls of 2 1/8", or 0.2125" per gap. Is this enough bee space for the bees to get from one side of the frame to the other by crawling around the ends? Same thing on the top bars. The standard width is 1 1/16". Your nine frames take up 9 9/16', leaving 2 11/16" to put into 10 gaps, or 2.6875". I understand from other posts on beesource.com that 0.25" is sufficient beespace. Do you leave the top bars at 1 1/16", or do you trim them down, too?

    Thanks,

    David
    David

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Evansville, IN, USA
    Posts
    2,837

    Post

    >1 inch to spread between the 10 gaps between walls and frames, an average of 1/10" . . .
    There is no space between frames, only 1/2" of unused room at each hive wall.

    >I assume you leave the lower part of the end bars at 1 1/8" wide . . .
    Trimming shoulders DOES change the bee space under the shoulders. The space becomes only 1/8" wide.

    >Is this enough bee space for the bees to get from one side of the frame to the other by crawling around the ends . . .
    No. The bees probably go over the top or under the endbars, IF they need to get to the SIDE of frame.

    >Same thing on the top bars . . .
    Trimming shoulders moves the top bars closer and leaves a 3/16" space between bars. Standard space is 5/16".

    >Do you leave the top bars at 1 1/16" . . .
    If you plan to trim top bars, better do it BEFORE frames are assembled.

    I am producing (and selling [img]smile.gif[/img] ) a custom-made 1-1/4 side bar w/ a 15/16 wide top bar that has a V-bottom (no foundation required). My special frames solve the problems noted above.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,316

    Post

    >This is too small to be a bee space.

    Actually, yes it is. I should cut down the top bars. I have not.

    > Do the bees fill it up with propolis?

    They build some burr comb sometimes.

    >I assume you leave the lower part of the end bars at 1 1/8" wide.

    I do.

    >This totals to 10 1/8 inches for the nine frames, leaving a total space between the frames and walls of 2 1/8", or 0.2125" per gap. Is this enough bee space for the bees to get from one side of the frame to the other by crawling around the ends?

    I don't know, but with the HSC the end bars are 1 3/8" all the way to the bottom. The bees still get around.

    >Same thing on the top bars. The standard width is 1 1/16". Your nine frames take up 9 9/16', leaving 2 11/16" to put into 10 gaps, or 2.6875". I understand from other posts on beesource.com that 0.25" is sufficient beespace. Do you leave the top bars at 1 1/16", or do you trim them down, too?

    I keep meaning to cut them down. I have not. Maybe someday I'll get around to it.

    >I am producing (and selling [Smile] ) a custom-made 1-1/4 side bar w/ a 15/16 wide top bar that has a V-bottom (no foundation required). My special frames solve the problems noted above.

    Dave's are just right. The right width of everything. I will be purchasing a lot of them. [img]smile.gif[/img]
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Franklin, IN
    Posts
    148

    Post

    Dave W, I'd like more info on the frames you are selling. I can't find a way to contact you.

    leamon

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Evansville, IN, USA
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    2,837

    Post

    leamon . . .

    Sent you a PM.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Salem, Oregon
    Posts
    457

    Post

    Speaking of cutting down the top bars -

    Last fall I needed more frames and my supplier only had 'California' top bars for them. These were, wait for it, 7/8" wide (using a very inexact ruler), which, I think is the size you're cutting them down to.

    I guess I'll start asking for them for all of my frames. Saves one step.

    Pugs

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Franklin, IN
    Posts
    148

    Post

    Dave, sent you an answer but the system showed a problem.
    leamon

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Post

    What supplier was that?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

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