Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 42
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh PA
    Posts
    399

    Question

    Hello All,
    I have a few questions..
    1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using 8 frame deeps for brood chambers v/s standard 10 frame?
    I read somewhere that 8 frame hives are not that stable when supers are stacked up and the brood chamber has 2 frames less(well we can file the frames and squeeze 9 frames as our respected MB does ), apart from these any sugesstions?
    2.Does having just 8 frames to cluster have an adverse effect on overwintering bees?

    3.How much less does a 8 frame super with honey/brood weigh as compared to 10 frame?

    I am yet to start so I am open to all sugestions/ideas [img]smile.gif[/img]
    I like deep frames at the same time don't wan't to strain my back, thats why this dilemma..
    There is no greater satisfaction than the satisfaction of a job well done.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Madisonville, Texas
    Posts
    438

    Post

    This is a link to all the writings of Walt Wright, he did an article of 9 frames in a 10 frame deep.

    http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/all%20walt%20articles.htm
    ;) Good Day Craig W.<br /><a href=\"http://www.weaversproduce.mysite.com\" target=\"_blank\">www.weaversproduce.mysite.com</a>

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Devils Lake, North Dakota
    Posts
    9,123

    Post

    1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using 8 frame deeps for brood chambers v/s standard 10 frame?

    Ease of use and lighter weight are the big
    advantages I see. A disadvantage is that it
    is not "standard" and equipment availability
    is limited to a few suppliers. Not a big deal
    for a hobbyist.

    2.Does having just 8 frames to cluster have an adverse effect on overwintering bees?

    Not from my limited experience. Clusters are
    seldom (if ever) going to span the eight frames
    and they generally move upward.

    3.How much less does a 8 frame super with honey/brood weigh as compared to 10 frame?

    Not trying to be a smart alec here but they
    will weigh 20% less. The weight will vary
    a lot.

    If your going to consider 8 frame then take
    a look at going all mediums. Much easier to
    handle, real back savers.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh PA
    Posts
    399

    Post

    Cool quick answers! I love this forum [img]smile.gif[/img]
    Thanks!
    I want all my boxes to be of the same dimensions so thinking 8 frame deeps would be good for both brood chambers as well as honey supers.. Has anyone tried it? Is it feasible?
    Craig W I am interested in 9 frames in an 8 frame deep not 9 frames in a 10 frame deep. sorry if I didn't clarify earlier..

    [size="1"][ January 27, 2007, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: balhanapi ][/size]
    There is no greater satisfaction than the satisfaction of a job well done.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,742

    Post

    &gt;1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using 8 frame deeps for brood chambers v/s standard 10 frame?

    10 frame deeps if they get full of honey weigh 90 pounds. 8 frame deeps if they get full of honey weigh about 60 pounds. 8 frame mediums if they are full of honey weigh about 48 pounds. I use all 8 frame mediums.

    &gt;I read somewhere that 8 frame hives are not that stable when supers are stacked up and the brood chamber has 2 frames less

    When you get a 60 mph gust of wind it will sometimes topple any tall hive. I've had the DE hives which are about 18 1/2" square blow over as well as some of the ten frame Langstroth equipment. I've actually never had one of the eight frame hives blow over, but, of course, they could, I've just been lucky. Put them up against each other or against each other in pairs and it won't be a problem.

    &gt;2.Does having just 8 frames to cluster have an adverse effect on overwintering bees?

    No. I know several people who believe it's a significant advantage. I don't know about that, but it's not a disadvantage.

    &gt;3.How much less does a 8 frame super with honey/brood weigh as compared to 10 frame?

    10 frame medium weighs 60 pounds. 8 frame medium weighs 48 pounds:
    http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#lighterboxes

    &gt;I like deep frames at the same time don't wan't to strain my back, thats why this dilemma..

    Another option is to go with 12 frame Dadant Deeps for the brood chamber and then put eight frame supers on top of that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    You could just put a filler board on the side like this:
    http://www.bushfarms.com/images/TenFrameToEight.JPG
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Elkton, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    288

    Post

    I will print this for Walt.

    BTW, Walt will be giving Nectar Management presentations in Connecticut on Tuesday, Jan. 30 and in New York on Tuesday, Feb 13. For details check the thread
    "Walt Wright appearances" in the General Beekeeping forum
    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...7119;p=#000004

    Roy

  7. #7

    Post

    Since the back strain is already a consideration go with medium/Illinios depth boxes. Forget deeps!
    The bees will not care.

    As for 8 vs 10, pick one and stay with it (otherwixe you will find you don't have the right size box when you need it or have to go through a stack of one size to get to the size you need).

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh PA
    Posts
    399

    Post

    Thanks for the responses so far..
    Ok the question thats coming to my mind is that if the medium super weighs 60lbs and the 8 frame deep also weighs 60lbs then whats the advantage of going with 10 frame medium? why can't 8 frame deeps be used for everything - brood as well as honey?
    I ask this coz I read at Beewranglers site that the vertical height is a consideration when bees build their own comb and I plan to use foundationless deep frames so as to give the bees maximum advantage. I also like the idea of garangutan( check sp.) brood chamber i.e. doulbedeep with frames running from top of the top deep to the base of lower deep for the same reason.

    I plan to start 2 hives next spring so um doing my homework Plz bear.. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    [size="1"][ January 29, 2007, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: balhanapi ][/size]
    There is no greater satisfaction than the satisfaction of a job well done.

  9. #9

    Post

    Nothing wrong with running all deeps just the weight factor. Also if you run all deeps then you can exchange frames between supers and brood bodies.

    I would not recommend running 9 frames in an 8-frame box. I run 14" 8-framers and you can sometimes just squeeze 9 frames in. I do this for drawing foundation. They are nearly impossible to get a frame out, once things are propolized.

    I would suggest 14" 8-framers with 8 frames or 7 and a feeder and 7 frames evenly spaced in the honey super. The 14" box has enough room to dig a frame out. With 7 frames in a honey super the bees draw out the comb beyond the wooden/plastic frame for easy uncapping.

    I have not had any problems with wintering in 8-frame equipment.

    Most woodenware manufacturers will custom cut what ever you want, find a local miller and buy all your equipment from it.

    Once you pick dimensions stick with them.

    I'm skeptical of the idea of letting them draw all of their own comb. This comb will contain drone brood of various amounts and lack the strength needed to handle extracting. Having no experience with allowing them to draw their own comb. I would guess that you will have frames that have to be destroyed because of comb constructed incorrectly (wavy, wrong direction, brace comb). There are proponents of all wax foundation and plastic foundation. I prefer plastic. No wiring. When they build drone comb on it you can scrape it off and start over. But they are slower to draw it out.


    Good luck!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,742

    Post

    &gt;why can't 8 frame deeps be used for everything - brood as well as honey?

    You can. But as long as you're going to 8 frames, I think you'll enjoy the 8 frame mediums more. 48 pounds is about the right amount of weight. If it was lighter you'd want to try to pick up two. If it was heavier, you'd wish it was lighter.

    For foundationless the mediums have better support for extracting, not to mention the extractors mostly hold twice as many of mediums as deeps.

    &gt;I'm skeptical of the idea of letting them draw all of their own comb. This comb will contain drone brood of various amounts

    Per frame, yes, per hive, it's fairly constant. They have a threshold for drone comb and will work at reaching it. Once it's reached they will not want more drone comb.

    &gt; and lack the strength needed to handle extracting.

    When it's brand new comb and when it's not attached yet on all four sides, yes. Once it is, it extracts fine. Again, the advantage would be to the mediums over the deeps in this regard.

    &gt; Having no experience with allowing them to draw their own comb. I would guess that you will have frames that have to be destroyed because of comb constructed incorrectly (wavy, wrong direction, brace comb).

    Sure. You'll have some with plastic foundation too, in about the same amounts.

    &gt; There are proponents of all wax foundation and plastic foundation. I prefer plastic. No wiring. When they build drone comb on it you can scrape it off and start over. But they are slower to draw it out.

    I prefer foundationless. No wiring and when they build drone comb you can just cut it out, if you insist. But I wouldn't. And they will be faster to draw it out.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  11. #11

    Post

    "Per frame, yes, per hive, it's fairly constant. They have a threshold for drone comb and will work at reaching it. Once it's reached they will not want more drone comb."

    If you remember where you saw such a study I would like to read it. Also, how would mite trapping with drone foundation work into this equation? Would they only draw a partial frame if they reached their threshold?

    "Sure. You'll have some with plastic foundation too, in about the same amounts."

    If this has been studied I would like to read it also. I have very little comb that is improperly built when using plastic foundation (easily less than 10%). You suggest by this comment that "free drawn comb" is also this good. If this is so why does the industry buy/use foundation? Why is the invention of foundation mills and foundation touted as one of the three breakthroughs for modern beekeeping?

    Since varroa prefers and reproduces more successfully on drone brood, I look to minimize the amount in my hives.

    Cheers!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Buda, Texas
    Posts
    922

    Post

    &gt;You can. But as long as you're going to 8 frames, I think you'll enjoy the 8 frame mediums more. 48 pounds is about the right amount of weight.

    Amen. The fingertip holds most boxes have in them make a heavy load more difficult to handle than it ought to be. Since none of us are growing younger and stronger, and won't be anytime soon, I am a big believer in not using deeps, and am becoming more and more convinced of the wisdom of 8 frames versus 10.
    "I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. " John 10:11

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh PA
    Posts
    399

    Post

    &lt;&lt;Does having just 8 frames to cluster have an adverse effect on overwintering bees?

    No. I know several people who believe it's a significant advantage. &gt;&gt;&gt;

    Hi MB, This is interesting could you tell us more about it? I mean what would be the mechanism behind it?

    please..

    please.... [img]smile.gif[/img] ( I know u said you don't know about it but please..)
    There is no greater satisfaction than the satisfaction of a job well done.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,742

    Post

    The people who think it's a significant advantage point out that the cluster size is such that the bees fill out the frames, at least on warmer days, and they will work their way to the top without so much meandering and leaving behind stores. Also the closer walls may be warmer. While I can see the point, I'm not sure that it is a significant advantage.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Tomhannock NY
    Posts
    238

    Post

    What about the amount of stores in 8 v 10? All things being equal the cluster should be the same size, but there would be fewer stores in an 8 frame set up.
    Its between you and your bees. L. Connor

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Decorah, IA
    Posts
    45

    Post

    To chime in my 2 cents, I use 9 frames in a ten frame box for brood, and honey. I did this because Steven Taber claimed it would not squash as many bees. Starting out I liked it and still do, You can get frames out and not feel like someone will get killed (like the Queen!) every time you check things out.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,742

    Post

    &gt;If you remember where you saw such a study I would like to read it.

    I saw a study presented by Dr. Clarence Collison - Professor and Head, Department of Entomology, Mississippi on the number of drones in a hive based on the amount of drone comb. No matter how much drone comb they gave the hive the bees reared the same number of drones. They would give a hive nothing but drone comb or nothing but worker comb. The end results were still the same. This is concerning the threshold for drones (as opposed to drone comb).

    A study on the threshold for drone comb was mentioned several times by several people on this board, I believe one was Dennis Murrel. I don't remember where to find it now. But it's consistent with my experience.

    &gt;but there would be fewer stores in an 8 frame set up.

    Two eight frame mediums = One ten frame deep. Use as many boxes as you need. They will do a better job of managing the stores in a skinnier box.

    &gt;I use 9 frames in a ten frame box for brood, and honey. I did this because Steven Taber claimed it would not squash as many bees.

    My experience is that the combs have more ins and outs with 9 frames in the brood nest and this makes me MORE paranoid of squashing bees. I shave the end bars and put 11 frames in a ten frame box and 9 frames in an eight frame box.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Decorah, IA
    Posts
    45

    Post

    Tabor was quoting his teacher Farara(?) on that one, and stated that when he was at the UW Madison bee lab that was the desired set up.
    I should note that I also use those metal frame spacer clips that go inside the frame rests.
    I have found that they are much cleaner, but I attribute this to the fact that my boxes are mixed, and are not all the same dimensions. that happens when you get alot of oddball stuff.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
    Posts
    3,361

    Post

    We run our comb honey hives in 8 frame equipment. We run singles which make causes crowding sometimes so management is a little more time consuming. We think bees pull comb honey out quicker and more completely than in 10 frame.

    We have consistently wintered 8 frame singles in the Fingerlakes Region with good success. Bees really pack out all 8 frames and we find the cluster seldom has to move over the winter to reach new stores.

    As far as weight goes I'm not experiancing much of a weight difference as everything is usually packed full with honey/brood whereas 10 frames tend to have more open space.

    I would not run them for extracted honey since as mentioned running singles tends to result in crowded brood chambers and increased managmentment to prevent swarms. I would think if you ran doubles it would be a great system although equipment is less avaialable.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Tomhannock NY
    Posts
    238

    Post

    Joel wrote:
    We have consistently wintered 8 frame singles in the Fingerlakes Region with good success. Bees really pack out all 8 frames and we find the cluster seldom has to move over the winter to reach new stores.

    Matt writes while scratching his head:
    Just when I think I have a slight handle on things I have to readjust my paradigm. I can fathom the notion that the bees can fit an similar amount of stores in an 8 frame deep as they can a 10 frame deep due to a more compaction. But singles? I bet they aren't Italians. I probably lose this one too.

    I'm getting ready to make the next step in my upcoming second season and this is an important factor right now.
    Its between you and your bees. L. Connor

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads