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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,785

    Post

    > I like the idea it just needed some tweaking to make it work. The ones I had did not fit in a 6 5/8 box. That was the summer of 2005 have they been changed since?

    Ditto an all of the above.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    The Hudson Valley, NY
    Posts
    297

    Post

    >Now your turn

    Boris, look here.

    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...088;p=1#000005

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    451

    Post

    Jim cannot prove his statement, but I can show that his statement is false.

    Ross Round Conversion Kit -$5.50
    $5.50 : 8 : 4= $0.17 per Unit

    Box of 8 Frames - $22.95.
    $22.95 : 8 (frames) : 4 (units) = $0.71 per Unit

    Ross Round Ring Box of 64 Rings - $14.95
    The Rings become part of the finished round comb package and,
    therefore, need to be replaced each year.
    $14.95 : 64= $0.23 per ring or $0.46 per Unit

    Ross Round Cover Box of 32 Covers - $9.95
    $9.95 : 32= $0.31 per cover or $0.62 per Unit (one on top and one on the bottom.)

    Foundation $7 per 28 sheets.
    $7 : 28 :4 = 0.06 per Unit

    Ross Round Label - $9.00
    $9.00 :100=$0.09 per Unit

    Total cost: $0.17 + $0.71 + $0.46 + $0.62 + $0.06 + $0.09 = $2.11 per 8 Oz. of Comb Honey Unit

    Total cost Bee-O-Pac per 4 Oz. Unit is $0.46 or
    $0.92 per 8 Oz. of Comb Honey.

    So, how about your statement: "Compared to Ross Rounds, they are almost as flagrantly cost-inefficient...?"
    Even without one time investment in the RR such as RR Conversion Kit, RR Frames ("literally forever" by Jim) your statement is incorrect.

    Boris

    [size="1"][ January 25, 2007, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Boris ][/size]

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    Boris is using prices for the very smallest
    quantities one can buy, and one gets much, much
    lower prices on consumables when buying them in
    more reasonable quantities.

    I'll not argue with the claim that the UP FRONT
    cost to "get into comb honey" is lower with
    the Bee-O-Pac, but it should be obvious that
    if anyone thought that the Bee-O-Pacs were
    an overall better "value", the serious producers
    of comb honey would adopt them en masse, as
    everyone would like to lower their costs.

    It isn't, so no one has.

    I'm not saying that Bee-O-Pac isn't a fine
    product, I'm sure it is, if the obvious
    bee space violations have been fixed as
    reported by Shane. But it is a hobby
    beekeeper product, intended to present
    the appearance of "convenience". It
    appears much less convenient when one
    attempts to use it due to its disposable
    nature.

    What's your connection to the Bee-O-Pac
    stuff Boris? Have you have any success
    with it when placing more than one super
    of Bee-O-Pac on a hive? Have you ever
    tried mixing Ross and Bee-O-Pac on the
    same hive, and seeing which gets filled
    first?

    Regardless of strength of hive, I've yet
    to see any hive completely finish more than
    3 supers of comb honey in one spring.
    I keep waiting for an "exceptional" spring,
    and waiting, and waiting... [img]smile.gif[/img]

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    451

    Post

    "Boris is using prices for the very smallest
    quantities one can buy, and one gets much, much
    lower prices on consumables when buying them in
    more reasonable quantities."

    Jim, your statement is incorrect again.
    From one hand, the difference is not so big:
    Ross Round Ring Box of 400 Rings - $52.95 or $0.13 per ring or $0.26 per Unit...or
    $1.91 per 8 Oz. of Comb Honey Unit.
    From other hand – you will get also a better price for Bee-O-Pac system when you will buy Box of 24 frames:
    $139.95 : 24(frames) : 16 (units) = 0.36 per 4 Oz. Unit or $0.72 per 8 Oz Comb Honey.

    Boris

    [size="1"][ January 25, 2007, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Boris ][/size]

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Lake county, Indiana 46408-4109
    Posts
    3,545

    Post

    Is it just me or is sombody FLOGING a dead horse? :confused:
    Ed, KA9CTT profanity is IGNORANCE made audible
    you can`t fix stupid not even with duct tape

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    > Ross Round Ring Box of 400 Rings - $52.95 or
    > $0.13 per ring or $0.26 per Unit

    OK, I see your math: $52.95/400 = 0.13, and yes
    it takes 2 rings for each Round, so $0.26 for
    rings when bought in quantity 400

    But 400 rings is only enough rings to make up
    6.25 Ross Round supers, again, a hobbyist
    quantity. Can you possibly fathom the idea
    that a serious producer of comb honey would buy
    in serious quantities, certainly more than would
    provision a mere 6 supers per season?

    I have no idea what you meant by the following:

    ...or $1.91 per 8 Oz. of Comb Honey Unit.

    No, it would be $0.26 per 8oz Ross Round comb
    honey "unit" (section). Where did you pull out
    $1.91? (Two rings per section, and if the bees
    don't fill the section, the rings can be reused
    next time.)

    This is getting too tedious for me.
    Have fun, use Bee-O-Pac, use whatever you'd like.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    Posts
    5,159

    Post

    Ladies and Gentelmen, we have a winner!
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    451

    Post

    1. "I have no idea what you meant by the following:
    ...or $1.91 per 8 Oz. of Comb Honey Unit."

    Jim, this is my last calculation for you. Boris

    Ross Round Conversion Kit -$5.50
    $5.50 : 8 (frames): 4 (units) = $0.17 per Unit

    Box of 8 Frames - $22.95.
    $22.95 : 8 (frames) : 4 (units) = $0.71 per Unit

    Ross Round Ring Box of 400 Rings - $52.95 or $0.13 per ring or $0.26 per Unit
    The Rings become part of the finished round comb package and,therefore, need to be replaced each year.

    Ross Round Cover Box of 32 Covers - $9.95
    $9.95 : 32= $0.31 per cover or $0.62 per Unit (one on top and one on the bottom.)
    Jim, these is my last calculatiom for you:

    Foundation $7 per 28 sheets.
    $7 : 28 :4 = 0.06 per Unit

    Ross Round Label - $9.00
    $9.00 :100=$0.09 per Unit

    Total cost: $0.17 + $0.71 + $0.26 + $0.62 + $0.06 + $0.09 = $1.91 per 8 Oz. of Comb Honey Unit


    2. "Can you possibly fathom the idea
    that a serious producer of comb honey would buy
    in serious quantities, certainly more than would
    provision a mere 6 supers per season?"

    Ross Round Rings Box of 700 Rings - $84.95 or $0.12 per ring or $0.24 per Unit.
    More than 1000 rings - apr. $0.11 per ring or $0.22 per Unit.
    The difference is not so big.

    [size="1"][ January 25, 2007, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Boris ][/size]

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    I think I understand - Boris has never used
    Ross Rounds, and therefore thinks that the
    "conversion kit" is required, and is unaware
    of the massive discounts offered on "complete
    Ross Round supers".

    But, have fun, and be sure to update your math
    after a few harvests, then you'll have a better
    handle on your actual costs.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Central Connecticut
    Posts
    40

    Post

    Someone please explain why spend the extra $$ on RR or bee-o-pac instead of just using foundation and cutting the comb into the desired sizes?

    Do the bees buid the comb faster in RR, etc.?

    Is the comb from RR, etc. higher quality?

    ...more eye appeal?

    Is RR, etc. less effort, why?

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    Cutting comb is fine, as long as the comb honey
    is sold with minimal handling after being cut,
    and is going to be consumed "at once".

    It is, in a word, "perishable". It will ooze,
    it can slide around in the calmshell container,
    it can become very unattractive if handled with
    less than "great care".

    Ross Rounds, Bee-O-Pac, and Hogg Cassettes all
    result in a comb that is attached to the walls
    of the container, so there is no ooze, no
    sliding, no mess. They can be stacked, packed,
    shipped, handled somewhat roughly (this may be
    less true of Bee-O-Pac than Ross Rounds or
    Hogg Cassettes, as the Bee-O-Pac uses very thin
    plastic, where the other two use very heavy
    duty stuff that one could make a drinking
    cup from), and still "survive" without being
    degraded.

    > ...more eye appeal?

    At point of sale, yes, in general.

    > Is RR, etc. less effort

    Less mess, certainly. Less effort in all the
    steps that come AFTER the beekeeping is done,
    and one is now handling food. Certainly much
    more sanitary, in that one can honestly state
    that human hands have not touched the honey
    or comb itself.

    There is a popular option called "chunk" honey,
    where cut comb is sliced into hunks slightly
    narrower than the mouth of a ball jar, slid
    into the ball jar, and then the jar is filled
    with liquid honey. This may sound disgusting,
    but there is a big market for it in some areas.

    Clearly, this would require "cut comb".

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    75

    Post

    I can sell all the chunk honey that I can produce or buy from others. It has always been popular in the south, but getting harder to find.
    Garry

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Crown Point , (NW) Indiana
    Posts
    529

    Post

    [Is it just me or is sombody FLOGING a dead horse?]

    I think its become a horse's skeleton, and soon to be a pile of calcium powder.

    I'm with Ed, dollar for dollar, even when considering the labor, I think cut comb honey is most superior to any packaged comb honey system. Its the only sure way to assure complete cells in the entire package with minimal packing costs. Any incomplete areas can be crushed and strained/spun and recovered (along with the wax).

    And I agree with Ed a second time, it doesn't matter what system is best, if you don't have a sales market you're wasting your time regardless what system you use.

    When you can set it and forget it like every other honey super and you don't have maintenance it like you do for Ross/Hogg/BOP, its a common sense choice to me. Keep it simple stupid.

    -Jeff
    There is always more than one way to skin a cat, that's of course if you're into eating cats.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    451

    Post

    Jim,

    1. Ross Round Frames are shorter than wooden extracting frames so you must install a Conversion Kit in every standard Super. This kit contains 4 Adapter Boards, Nails and 2 Super Springs.

    2. I will buy Ross Round Complete Comb Super Kit with Foundation, if I will find "the massive discounts offered on complete Ross Round supers"...
    How big must be "massive" quantity?
    What is the real price in such situation?

    Boris

    [size="1"][ January 27, 2007, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Boris ][/size]

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
    Posts
    3,361

    Post

    {Someone please explain why spend the extra $$ on RR or bee-o-pac instead of just using foundation and cutting the comb into the desired sizes?}

    Having produced both in reasonably large quantities I see no reason to run any type of section comb honey. It is time consuming and costly to assemble, Bees do not like working in the space provided and don't give you the total comb honey view you get with well drained cut comb in clear plastic containers.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    > 1. Ross Round Frames are shorter than wooden
    > extracting frames so you must install a
    > Conversion Kit....

    Naw, you can just cut the super down. It is
    a great way to find a productive use for those
    supers that have started to suffer from
    "corner rot". One needs a table saw, but a
    careful person could use a circular saw.

    > 2 Super Springs

    Shucks, I don't know anyone who pays bee
    supply house prices for springs that can
    be bought at any craft supply store in
    the picture framing section for about $0.02
    each in quantity 10.

    > I will buy Ross Round Complete Comb Super Kit
    > with Foundation, if I will find "the massive
    > discounts offered on complete Ross Round
    > supers"...

    Contact Lloyd Spear. He can tell you when his
    next sale will be. Lloyd often sets up a table
    at various bee meetings, and offers the same
    deal himself. He has attended the Tri-County
    meeting in Wooster OH on the 1st Saturday in
    March, perhaps he will again.

    > How big must be "massive" quantity?

    Quantity 1. The discount is massive, the
    quantity need not be.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    451

    Post

    "Can you possibly fathom the idea
    that a serious producer of comb honey would buy
    in serious quantities..."
    "The discount is massive, the quantity need not be." ... It is not funny any more.

    Jim, because you again did not answer for my direct question (What is the real price in such situation?) - the price discussion with you is over.
    Next time please do not disinform forum members with your statements like this: "Compared to Ross Rounds, they are almost as flagrantly cost-inefficient..."

    Boris

    [size="1"][ January 28, 2007, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Boris ][/size]

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    I'll try one last time Boris, and then I have
    to go lay on a beach in the Bahamas for a while,
    and will not be able to toy with you further.

    Read this:
    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...088;p=1#000007
    And call Shane at Betterbee, as Lloyd suggests,
    and ask HIM what sort of waste you are going to
    have with Bee-O-Pac. If a guy who SELLS Bee-O-Pac
    says "65%" saleable sections, then I will continue
    to take the position that it is your lack of
    experience that is causing you to unwittingly
    misinform the forum members.

    So, go re-do your math, and don't argue with
    me, argue with a guy who sells the Bee-O-Pac
    stuff.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    451

    Default

    Jim,

    Betterbee did not confirm your statement.

    Boris

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