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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    440

    Post

    Recently, I created my new web page devoted to the Bee-O-Pac system:
    http://www.beebehavior.com/bee-o-pac.php

    Boris

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    Nice photos, but your first sentence is inaccurate -
    they DON'T fit in a standard 6 5/8ths (medium) super.

    The "top bars" are too thin, so when placed in
    a super, the plastic "frame" extends below the
    bottom of the super. Of course, there is not
    room for this in a hive, so it jams up against
    the top bars in the super directly below.

    If you shim the rabbets in your Bee-O-Pac supers,
    you might be able to make them actually fit.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    440

    Post

    To prove my statement I've just placed additional photo on my web-page. Maybe your supers are not standard?

    Boris

    [size="1"][ January 13, 2007, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Boris ][/size]

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    Have they changed the width of the "top bar" so
    that it is now "thicker"? Perhaps they did, but
    a set of the the first batch was assembled and
    then carried around to each and every dealer
    present at EAS 2004 (in PA) to try and find any
    supers where they would fit without protruding
    out the bottom of the super, and none of Dadant,
    Kelley, Mann Lake, Betterbee, Rossman, or
    Brushy Mountain's supers were compatible with
    them.

    Do yours protrude? As luck would have it, your photo hides the problem I described if it still
    exists. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Moravian Falls, NC
    Posts
    67

    Post

    Hi Jim,

    They made a few changes after the first year so the frames fit a better now.

    Cheers,
    Shane
    Brushy Mtn Bee Farm
    www.brushymountainbeefarm.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    440

    Post

    New photos and comments were added here:
    http://www.beebehavior.com/bee-o-pac.php

    Boris

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Central Connecticut
    Posts
    40

    Post

    Very helpful, thanks. How does this system compare in cost to other?

    [size="1"][ January 18, 2007, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: n1st ][/size]

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    > How does this system compare in cost to other?

    Compared to Ross Rounds, they are almost as
    flagrantly cost-inefficient as buying a Ross
    Round super and then throwing it away after
    one harvest!

    With Ross Rounds, one invests in the plastic
    "frames", which last literally forever. I
    bought my initial inventory from a retiring
    beekeeper. They aren't cheap, but one can
    amortize the cost over as many seasons of
    production as one wishes. Only some thin
    surplus foundation and rings/lids are
    "expensed" against each year's crop.

    With the Bee-O-Pac, one must expense the
    entire cost of a set of Bee-O-Pac frames
    against each years crop. This is a serious
    cost difference, so serious, that Bee-O-Pac
    starts to look like a wanna-be "business
    partner" rather than an equipment supplier.

    Yes, the initial cost is lower with Bee-O-Pac,
    but when you get your first crop, you'll find
    that not all the little "Pacs" will be filled,
    and you can end up with waste. When you
    break apart the things, you must throw away
    the unfilled "Pacs". This makes the cost of
    Bee-O-Pac even higher, as a percentage of the
    filled "Pacs" that can be sold.

    With Ross Rounds, all one "wastes" is about
    1/4 sheet of thin surplus foundation per
    unfilled section. The rings can be reused,
    and the plastic covers are only used to
    cover finished rounds.

    Why is "waste" an issue? Well, comb honey is
    a spring thing for most beekeepers. Forget about
    trying to get multiple crops of comb honey
    from your bees. I've tried. [img]smile.gif[/img] One is advised
    to provision more comb honey supers than one thinks
    the bees can fill, as one would hate to have a
    strong bloom, and have a limited crop limited by
    available supers. So, one makes a small wager
    with Ross Rounds, but makes a large wager with
    the Bee-O-Pac, as re-use of Bee-O-Pac is
    impossible at any but the "entire frame" level.

    Another problem with the Bee-O-Pac is that
    there is no wax associated with the product,
    so the bees have a harder time drawing out
    comb. (The Hogg cassette also lacks wax, or
    at least did in the initial product offering.)
    The problem with this can be clearly illustrated
    to anyone who inserts a sheet of the colored
    foundation (sold to make those tacky "rolled"
    candles) into a frame. The bees really do
    "draw out" the wax rather than attaching wax
    to the foundation, and the colored wax of the
    foundation makes this visible to the beekeeper,
    showing the advantage of wax foundation or
    waxed plastic foundation.

    Another (minor) issue with the Bee-O-Pac is
    the flimsy nature of the plastic itself. When
    snapped together and placed into a super, there
    are gaps between the two halves, and the bees
    often spend a great deal of time propolizing
    these gaps, some bees will wander into the
    gaps, become trapped and die, and so on. The
    end result is "messy" as compared to the
    Ross Rounds, and with comb honey, one wants
    a very very very good-looking result. Some
    beekeepers will use scotch tape to close the
    gaps, but the bees like to chew on the tape.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Lake county, Indiana 46408-4109
    Posts
    3,536

    Post

    I have never used Bee-O-Pack but have seen it and it looks like to much work for me and what I saw was a nice super drawn out verry good with lite honey and looked much nicer than posted here but the frame that was displayed at our Fair was sticky with lots of burr comb and propolis, them there is the cost.

    I do have one in front of me that the guy gave me and it is to nice looking to eat, and it is 2 years old.

    I have RRs but I think the most cost efficent way to do comb honey is CUT COMB.

    That is my 2 cents as I am not a BIG comb honey fan (not a good seller for me) but we do sell a lot of comb honey at the Fair every year.
    Ed, KA9CTT profanity is IGNORANCE made audible
    you can`t fix stupid not even with duct tape

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    440

    Post



    [size="1"][ January 19, 2007, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Boris ][/size]

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    440

    Post

    "How does this system compare in cost to other?"

    Betterbee prices and calculation:
    1.BEE-O-PAC Frames With Lids (Box of 8) - $49.95;
    BEE-O-PAC Frames With Lids Box of 24 - $139.95
    2. "From each completed super, you will harvest up to 128 four ounce comb honeys. Suggested retail for each comb honey is $3.00. Yes, that is almost $374 per super."


    Boris

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Central Connecticut
    Posts
    40

    Post

    Jim,

    Thank you for the for the detailed cost comparison. Can someone comment on the difficulty of set up, maintenance, and harvest? BOP looks very simple. My perspective... I have not used wax foundation, only plactic foundation.

    [size="1"][ January 20, 2007, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: n1st ][/size]

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    440

    Post

    "Compared to Ross Rounds, they are almost as
    flagrantly cost-inefficient as buying a Ross
    Round super and then throwing it away after
    one harvest!"

    Jim,
    Your comparison cost is completely incorrect, because for the Ross Roud system you have to buy Ross Round Covers - one on top and one on the bottom. In your comparison covers are FREE. But they cost a lot of money.
    Cost comparison without real calculation is a very bad idea...
    However for the Bee-O-Pac system you do not have to buy anything else!

    Boris

    [size="1"][ January 20, 2007, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Boris ][/size]

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    If you want "simple" the Hogg cassettes are clearly
    the simplest, in that they come pre-assembled and
    ready to slide into a super.

    If one is careful, the Bee-O-Pacs are simple to
    assemble, but deforming the little "bumps" to
    seal the two halves together can be more of
    a problem than one expects, leading to the use
    of tape, staples, and foul language.

    Ross Rounds are more difficult to assemble than
    Bee-O-Pac or the Hogg cassettes, but the
    "difficulty" is overcome if one is shown how to
    assemble them by an experienced producer of Ross
    Rounds. The good news is that they are nearly
    bullet-proof, and can take a lot more banging
    around, dropping to the floor, and rough handling
    than either of the other two comb honey products.

    > "BEE-O-PAC Frames With Lids (Box of 8) - $49.95
    > From each completed super, you will harvest up
    > to 128 four ounce comb honeys. Suggested retail
    > for each comb honey is $3.00. Yes, that is
    > almost $374 per super."

    Yeah, "up to". [img]smile.gif[/img] But this sort of
    speculative math that assumes 100% success
    rather than a more reasonable return has caused
    beekeepers to calculate comfortable profits, yet
    live a hand-to-mouth existence for centuries.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    440

    Post

    Jim,
    you still did not confirm your previous statement: "Compared to Ross Rounds, they are almost as flagrantly cost-inefficient as buying a Ross Round super and then throwing it away after
    one harvest!"
    Where is your real calculation?

    Boris

    [size="1"][ January 20, 2007, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Boris ][/size]

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    Boris, you can look at the prices, add up the
    larger up-front investment for Ross Rounds,
    and then amortize that up-front investment
    over whatever number of seasons you wish just
    as easily as I, or anyone else.

    You can also compare the costs inherent in a
    more realistic situation, where multiple
    supers are provisioned on a hive, and not all
    sections of all supers are filled. With the
    Bee-O-Pac, one cann reuse anything smaller than
    a "frame", where with the Ross-Rounds, one can
    reuse everything except the foundation if the
    bees don't fill all the sections.

    But don't argue with me, do the math!

    That's why there is an international market
    for Ross Round sections, and there isn't enough
    of the Bee-O-Pac or Hogg cassettes to even make
    up a single shipment to a distributor, as the
    Bee-O-Pac and Hogg products are sold to hobby
    beekeepers, who value what is sold as "ease of
    use" over profitability.

    As for the Ross Round covers, they are not free,
    but they are never wasted, either. With the
    Bee-O-Pac, the covers are included with the
    "frames", and one cannot buy frames without
    covers, so any sections not filled must be
    counted as "waste" except for the special case
    where an entire Bee-O-Pac "frame" is left
    untouched by the bees.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Grahamsville, NY
    Posts
    440

    Post

    My calculation for the Bee-O-Pac system.

    $49.95 : 8 (frames): 16 (units per frame)= 0.39 cents per unit
    Label cost $27.95 : 400 = 0.07 cents per label.
    Total cost per unit 0.39 + 0.07=0.46 cents

    Now your turn Jim.

    Boris

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

    Post

    As I said, do the math yourself.

    Every beekeeper should do his own math.

    But your math assumes 100% perfection in
    filling every "unit", which is a very
    optimistic assumption, moreso for a
    product made of 100% plastic, not even
    wax-coated.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Delta, Utah
    Posts
    494

    Post

    I have to agree with you Jim, $50.00 is way way way over priced for a little bit of plastic that cannot be reused.
    -Rob Bliss
    Bliss Honey and bee supplies

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Fruitland ,Idaho
    Posts
    419

    Post

    I tried these on 3 different flows in 3 states and couldn't make them work better than ross rounds or the hogg. We got some filled but it took a lot of labor and cost the hive some honey. I like the idea it just needed some tweaking to make it work. The ones I had did not fit in a 6 5/8 box. That was the summer of 2005 have they been changed since?

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