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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Lyndon, KS
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    354

    Post

    Does a standard hive Body have to be 9 5/8" or can it be 9 1/2".......I have seen both in catalogs.....If it can be 9 1/2" that woul dbe great as all i would have to buy would be 1x10 lumber to make them.....

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    You have to stop and smell the roses......but please watch out for my bees.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    There does seem to be, in recent years, a trend toward making deeps that are 9 1/2". If you have frames that are exactly 9 1/4" (which they theoretically are) then that sitll gives you minimum bee space (1/4"). But if the bottom bar isn't seated well or the top bar isn't seated well it's common for a frame to end up 9 5/16" or even 9 3/8" in which case you are under the minimum beespace. I notice most of the people making 9 1/2" boxes also make their frames 9 1/8".

    But again, part of the problem is that often a 1 by 10 is only 9 1/4" and your frames are 9 1/4".

    Can you get by with 9 1/2"? Yes. Would you better off to buy 9 1/8" frames if you do? Yes. Can you get by with 9 1/4" frames? Usually if they are put together well. But when you sometimes get burr comb between the same two boxes consistently this inconsistency of size may well be the cause.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    belo horizonte,MG,Brazil
    Posts
    13

    Post

    Michael,
    What about super? 5-11/16 and how much for the frames?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,408

    Post

    Walter Kelly's shallows are 5 3/4" and the frames are 5 3/8" which is 3/8" bee space.

    Mann Lake's shallows are 5 5/8" and their frames are 5 3/8" which is 1/4" bee space.

    Betterbee's shallows are 5 11/16" and their frames are 5 7/16" high which is 1/4" bee space.

    Draper's are 5 11/16" with frames that are 5 3/8" which is 5/16" bee space.

    Aren't you glad we have standards?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Lyndon, KS
    Posts
    354

    Post

    The reason I ask is because I am wanting to become commercial and want to standardise my equipment to all deeps (to reduse the amount of equipment)and am planning on using Mann lake one piece plastic frames...I have had good luck with them this year and will use them again........Will those work with 9 1/2" boxes with 5/8" frame rests?

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    You have to stop and smell the roses......but please watch out for my bees.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,408

    Post

    As far as I know Mann Lake has Pierco and they a 9 1/8". In a 9 1/2" that's 3/8" bee space, which I think is just right.

  7. #7
    jfischer Guest

    Post

    The whole "bee space" situation is a complete
    mess right now, despite multiple articles in Bee Culture (March 2001 and Jan 1996) that clearly listed which combinations of frames,
    supers, and hive bodies respected bee space,
    and which did not. One is not even safe
    buying all one's equipment from the same
    vendor, as not all equipment from the same
    vendor is "compatible" when stacked atop
    each other.

    I suggested (over on the Bee-L list) that
    a standards body be formed to dictate a
    set of standards for true interchangeable
    equipment, and true compatible equipment,
    but the suggestion fell upon deaf ears.

    I've served on standards bodies for all
    sorts of stuff, and all I can say is that
    we need to take a flame-thrower to some
    of these woodenware vendors. If they
    won't sit down with each other and work
    out a standard, then we need to impose
    one upon them by brute force and boycott.

    Yeah, right. Beekeepers will cooperate
    with each other, and respect a boycott.
    Suuuure.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Golden, CO
    Posts
    171

    Post

    I recently was looking to purchase some new hardware and wanted to adjust my existing hardware to the prevailing standard. I searched the web for days and couldn't even reconcile wether I should use top or bottom bee-space (but at least I found Beesource.com from that initial search )

    If you would like to establish a standard you could probably do it by first establishing an authority. The authority doesn't need any form of official recognition, it just needs to become the predominant reference concerning hive dimensions. The start would be to to produce the comparison database of dimensions of all hive parts from all manufacturers. Then allow anyone to reproduce your data requiring only proper attribution by linking to your site as the source.

    With the links bringing in exactly the visitors that are most interested in what you are presenting, you can list the various existing standards, the pros and cons for each and your personal recommendation for which standard should be adopted. The raw data would of course reflect which standards each hardware piece is compatible with and where it can be obtained.

    If your recommendations result in even an apparent increase in sales following certain standards the manufacturers will follow up by expanding those lines. No pressure, no boycotts. Just everybody acting in what they perceive to be there own best interest.

  9. #9
    dtwilliamson Guest

    Post

    I bought woodenware from several different sources and found a difference in the sizes of the boxes and in the depth of the rabbet of the frame rests. There were even differences in boxes coming from the same company. They claimed that they have several different vendors making their boxes. I ended up deciding to make my own. I enjoy doing it anyway and get exactly the same size box and the setup I want with every box. I've tried some 9 1/2 boxes and even with the 1/4" bee space ended up with more bur comb. My bees just seem to like a hair more space. (Or maybe I was off a 1/16th !) I made all my deeps 9 7/16ths. Seemed to work great. I'm going to all med now. I pulled off a full med of capped honey and had forgotten how heavy they are. Convinced me! I don't want to lift anything heavier than that!


    Dan

    [This message has been edited by dtwilliamson (edited August 30, 2004).]

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,408

    Post

    Another place that there is no consistency (besides, box depth, frame depth and rabbet depth) is inner covers. Some have 1/8" space. Some have none. Since the rabbets vary too, sometimes you end up with less than 1/4" at the top or more than 3/8" at the top.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Lyndon, KS
    Posts
    354

    Post

    So if I use 9 1/2" boxes with 5/8" frame rest and pierco frames that will leave me 3/8" bee space......1/4" on top and 1/8" on bottom.....that sounds good to me....or if I use 3/4" frame rest that gives 3/8" on top....which is better?........3/4" would be eaiser because when I cut my rabbits on the ends I could cut the frame rests also and would not have to reset the dado blade...(you know me and dado blades)(still have not gotten feeling back yet)



    ------------------
    You have to stop and smell the roses......but please watch out for my bees.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,408

    Post

    >So if I use 9 1/2" boxes with 5/8" frame rest and pierco frames that will leave me 3/8" bee space......1/4" on top and 1/8" on bottom.....that sounds good to me....or if I use 3/4" frame rest that gives 3/8" on top....which is better?

    The problem with that is the 3/8" on the top gets added to the 1/8 on the bottom of the next box and makes 4/8" or 1/2" which is an 1/8" over maximum beespace.

    >.......3/4" would be eaiser because when I cut my rabbits on the ends I could cut the frame rests also and would not have to reset the dado blade...(you know me and dado blades)(still have not gotten feeling back yet)

    That is how I do my long hives because I want to use a plain Migratory cover for a lid and have 3/8" space at the top, but so far I have seldom used supers on them.

    I also use the 3/4" rabbet for mating nucs so I can have a little more (3/8" instead of 1/4") beepspace.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Lyndon, KS
    Posts
    354

    Post

    Well scratch that Idea as I went to Home Depot and measured the 1x10's and guess what??????? Now they are only 9 1/4" wide.......so back to cutting down 1x12's........when did they change demintions again?

    ------------------
    You have to stop and smell the roses......but please watch out for my bees.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Post

    The latest one by tens I've bought vary from 9 1/2" to 9 1/4". They seem to be about as consistent as the deep boxes.

    You can run the scraps through and make the triangle piece for foundationless frames.

    Or use them for handhold cleats.

    Or use them for the edges of the bottom board or cleats on migratory covers.

    But it would sure be cheaper to be able to buy 1 x 10s.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    McMinnville, TN, USA
    Posts
    716

    Post

    As a carpenter(well was before I messed up my back)I have seen the down sizing of materials. I have been in an old houses that had finished 2X4s that measured 1 3/4 X 3 3/4. I measured a new 2X4 from one local vender that was 1 1/2 X 3 1/4. This makes building homes harder because of trying to match up lumber yard vendors not just using the same lumber yard. My cusin sent a load of pre cut studs back because they were to narrow to match the 16 footer used for top and bottom plates.
    I use the 3/4 dado all around for the lap joint and the rabbet. Since I use all mediums and make all my boxes I have nothing to worry about that. And they work out properly for migratory covers.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Golden, CO
    Posts
    171

    Post

    "I went to Home Depot and measured the 1x10's and guess what??????? Now they are only 9 1/4" wide"

    This is called "American Standard" dimensions. I think the lumber industry is using body parts for their standard measure and the viagra isn't working.

    The best way I can think of to protest against their lies is to stop using english measurements. The plan dimensions can all be converted to metric, specifying the the real size and tolerances. There is no reason any more to use english measures since they only add confusion when you go to buy the wood. Besides, the rest of the world has already converted to metric long ago.

    When you go to the lumber yard, request what you need in millimeters. Take along your tape to check that you are getting what you ask for because you know they are going to lie.

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