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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    McMinnville, TN, USA
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    716

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    And I think you MB for the idea to use foundationless frames as I have grown to call them. They work great. One hive was not given proper attention an bent the ends of each comb onto the next frame. but it was easy to correct by cutting the ends out of each frame and placing them between fully drawn frames of another box. The rite-cell foundation from Mann lake was a mess. the bees built the comb off the face of the foundation or cross combed it. I have several frames that have never been drawn properly after 1 1/2 years of use and scraping them back down. I did recoat them with melted wax and a paint brush(new). It did help but a few frames are still not drawn. This has really turned me against the plastic. But I may have to try it again with another type of plastic foundation.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,742

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    >The rite-cell foundation from Mann lake was a mess. the bees built the comb off the face of the foundation or cross combed it.

    To be fair I've seen them mess up every kind of foundation, foundationless and starter strips except maybe the PermaComb. I've seen them all cross combed one time or the other. But they seem more inclined to do it on plastic than wax.

  3. #23
    dtwilliamson Guest

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    I have had them cross comb it and build it out from the face of the plastic. In almost every case I had not first coated it with sugar syrup. Seems to be the key with plastic. Of course there are never any guarantees.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lakeland FL
    Posts
    862

    Post

    is there a waay to extract foundation less frames?

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Lincolnton Ga. USA.
    Posts
    1,725

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    whats does coating plastic foundation with sugar syrup do? how do the bees react from us coating them or not coating them with syrup???

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
    Posts
    2,359

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    I dont think sugar coating plastic is going to make any difference if the fundamental requirements arent present for drawing comb-that is a strong hive with an abundance of incoming nectar and the need for more storage space.I found the Pierco was easy to get drawn if the above was met,just like regular wax foundation.The BIG advantage of the Pierco(besides labor saved) is if conditions turn out to be 'not just right' the Pierco is still intact,unlike wax which will often have warped out of the frame if neglected by the bees.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Lincolnton Ga. USA.
    Posts
    1,725

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    so next year when i get my 3 packages of bees , when i install them in there new hive with pierco foundation would it be smart to spray sugar syrup on the foundations before i install the bees ?

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Lincolnton Ga. USA.
    Posts
    1,725

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    so next year when i get my 3 packages of bees , when i install them in there new hive with pierco foundation would it be smart to spray sugar syrup on the foundations before i install the bees ?

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,742

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    I would spray it. The bees licking it off will make the wax smell better and be more accepted and the syrup will do the package some good. It's a win/win.

  10. #30
    dtwilliamson Guest

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    I just take my frames and pour sugar syrup over them before I put them on the hive. The bees get all over the frames taking off the sugar syrup. I don't know why it works. I guess they get used to the plastic while they are working it over. There was a sheet of paper included with the box recommending the sugar syrup whenever I have purchased plastic frames. Sometimes I have put the frames in without first coating them (because I didn't have time) and occasionally those frames would get cross combed. Sometimes they drew them out fine. I rarely have had a problem when I have coated them with sugar syrup.

    As a caveat this is my first year using plastic so I don't have a long term history. However, between my two nucs started in May they have drawn out 6 deeps and 3 meds of plastic frames. I think I only had a problem with 3 frames out of the 90 they drew out.... I'll take that percentage anyday...

    Dan

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Lincolnton Ga. USA.
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    1,725

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    well thanks for all the answers guys , yall help me out alot on what kind of hive equipment i will order ,,, thanks again

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,742

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    I bought a lot of rite cell and then discovered what natural cell size was and now have a lot of plastic foundation I don't use because it's oversized cells.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Lincolnton Ga. USA.
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    1,725

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    Michael, tell me something ,(i not trying to sound like a smart butt,I've just been thinking)i know you have had sucess on the natural size cells, if all the feral bees in the wild made natural sized cells , how did the mites kill them to start with . just a question i been thinking about. I know you the man and got a answer . I just dont understand this natural cell thing. I'm sure they benifit some how. its hard to ask a question like this and not sound like a smart *****.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,742

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    >tell me something... if all the feral bees in the wild made natural sized cells , how did the mites kill them to start with . just a question i been thinking about.

    First, since I find feral bees all the time, I guess I think part of the answer is that you are under the mistaken impression that the feral bees died.

    Second, a lot of the feral bees are recent escapees who build 5.1mm or so cell size and it requires 4.9mm to survive the mites well.

    Third, I'm sure genetics plays a part in all of this and some of the feral bees did die because they didn't have the genetics to survive the mites. The ones that are left did.

    >I'm sure they benifit some how.

    Mostly the benefit I see is shortening capping and post capping times resulting in less varroa in the cell because they get capped a day before most of them infest the cell and they emerge two days sooner (one day shorter post capping time) which means less Varroa reporoduce before they emerge.



  15. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Lincolnton Ga. USA.
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    1,725

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    I know that some feral bees survived but i think all in my area wasnt with that trait to survive the mites , i havent seen a honey bee around my place for about 10 years, thats 1 reason i would like to get some hives going around here but the main reason is that i always wanted some of my own. thanks Michael for the info!!

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    McMinnville, TN, USA
    Posts
    716

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    To add to MBs response, Traceal mites are not affected as much as Varroa mites with smaller cell. The traceal mites destroyed most of the wild bees before the varroa got here. Buckfast bees were bred for resistance to these mite so it tells me that some bees had the resistance and are now getting their population back up.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
    Posts
    2,359

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    Well,back to the pierco frames.I just started extracting some and found that my Maxant chain uncapper just destroys the comb!It tends to do that with new combs built on wax foundation too,but not nearly as bad.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,742

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    Part of it too, is the age of the comb. Brand new comb is really soft compared to comb a few weeks or months old. Maybe once it's aged it will uncap better.

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