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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
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    crown point, NY, USA
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    Hi all,

    Any of you guys have plans for the buckfast dadant hive boxes (this is a 12 frame box)? Does dadant still make frames for these? Also plans for the supers for these? Thanks.

    Clay

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    No one makes a box that I know of. I make my own. If you use a 1 by 12 and add 1 1/8" onto the bottom you can just screen that and leave an opening in the front and you won't need a bottom board. If you make it 19 7/8 x 19 7/8 It will hold 12 or 13 frames if you crowd or if you have small cell, use a plane and take one swipe on each side of the end bars (make sure you do this before there are nails from the sides of the end bars or don't nail from the sides) and fit 14 frames in. I just put a standard super on and a 20" long 1 by four on the side to fill the gap. That way I can use a standard queen excluder etc. Frames are available from Western Bee Supply but they are not listed in the catalog. You will have to call and ask for them. If you get someone who says they don't have them try back again later or insist. They will tell you they are only available in budget frames. These are nice frames. The reason I think they call them budget is the notch in the side bars for the bottom bar is too wide. I just center it and nail it and it works fine.

    I haven't found foundation, but am using small cell anyway, so I am just putting deep foundation and leaving the 2 inch gap at the bottom.


    [This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited January 17, 2004).]

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
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    crown point, NY, USA
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    971

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    MB,

    Thanks. I think I will make supers to fit them at some point but may start with regular supers for now. Do you think a laminated 1 x 14 will work (cut to size)? I really want a bottom board instead of screen bottom. I will check with western bee supply. I may just make my own frames. How deep is the top rabbit on them?

    How do you find that the bees winter in these hives?

    Clay



  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
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    Post

    I have had 12 Dadant Jumbo hives since I visited Brother Adam in 1978. I would not again make 20X20 medium supers, but it does help keep the big producers lower when they make a big crop. I only have 31 for my 12 hives anyway, so I use a lot of Langstroth size supers on the square hives, with a board to cover the gap. Sweinty in Denmark sells 19 1/5" X 19 3/4" queen excluders, I finally bought them last year, after 25 years of using Lanstroth excluders with a thin board. One thing I don't like is that you don't have second brood chamber for requeening and divides. I agree with Brother Adam that it is the best size single brood chamber. Dadant sells the deep foundation in normal cell size. I hope to get them on Sbb's one day.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
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    Check out the polystyrene Jumbo boxes for sale at Sweinty. Want to make an order with me ? They have ones that will break down for shipping reduced fees.

    http://www.swienty.com/engelsk/index-us.htm

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
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    Deep frames... can we afford the freight ?
    http://www.swienty.com/engelsk/frames2.html

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    San Mateo, CA
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    Don't you love the Swienty website ?
    http://www.swienty.com/products/101845.htm

  8. #8
    I ordered several of the APIDEA mating nuc boxes from Swienty a couple years ago and was pleased with their service and price. These were super little mating nucs and I've enjoyed using them.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,336

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    >Thanks. I think I will make supers to fit them at some point but may start with regular supers for now.

    I wouldn't. Oddfrank has and says he wouldn't again. They are too heavy. If I was going to use nonstandard ones, I go to the eight frame ones.

    >Do you think a laminated 1 x 14 will work (cut to size)?

    Sure, but it's too expensive. You can just cut a 1/2 inch strip and nail it on the bottom of one made from a 1 x 12. I've done several this way.

    >I really want a bottom board instead of screen bottom.

    Then put the 1/2 inch strip on and make a bottom board.

    >I will check with western bee supply. I may just make my own frames. How deep is the top rabbit on them?

    A standard hive is 5/8" deep on the frame rest rabbit. Is that what you mean? The frames are 3/8" on the ends of the bars same as any other size.

    >How do you find that the bees winter in these hives?

    I've built more of them than I've used so far, since this is a recent experiment. This is the first winter and I only have one, but so far it's doing well.

    I have several dadant deep boxes. I have two 5 frame nucs, three ten frame boxes and two double wides (32 1/2") and I'm going to build a three wide besides the square one. Some I built from 1 x 12 and some are converted 9 5/8" deep boxes. One is a medium with 5" added on.

    If it was me, I'd add on to one of your 10 frame boxes (2" wide box and put it on with the hive moving staples), shave the sides off the end bars down to 1 1/4" wide for your small cell and you'll get 11 frames in a 10 frame box. With the increased number of brood cells on small cell you'll still have more brood cells in that box than with 12 frames of large cell in a square box. You won't have to build a special bottom board etc. If you really like it, then you can build a sqaure one with all the extras. That way you only have to build one 2" high box that you staple on and 11 dadant deep frames. Just a suggestion.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    crown point, NY, USA
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    I am quite set on making the jumbo dadant supers. They only weight 50lbs. Thats a heck of alot lighter than my lang deeps for certain lol. I due have to find the hieght of those supers though? I here they are 6" tall but not sure?

    >Sure, but it's too expensive. You can just >cut a 1/2 inch strip and nail it on the >bottom of one made from a 1 x 12. I've done >several this way.

    I will do the 1x12 with the half inch nailed on. I was thinking of using a busicuit joiner to join two boards but thats more work.


    >Then put the 1/2 inch strip on and make a >bottom board.

    I am thinking of making rather fancier once like Brother Adam used with a 0ne inch drop from back to front to facilitate water dranage. But this is a maybe?


    >standard hive is 5/8" deep on the frame >rest rabbit. Is that what you mean? The >frames are 3/8" on the ends of the bars >same as any other size.

    I was just trying to figure if the hive maintained top or bottom bee space since alot of european designs have bottom. But answered my own question.

    I think I really like the idea of a single deep jumbo box. That with the proper supers will allow for a much shorter stacked colony, at least half the height of a langstroth colony. Also my mill can make any length of foundation and the depth can be from 15 or 17 inches (can't remember) but I think I may use starters strips. What I am thinking of doing is to make a swarm cathing frame the size of a dadant frame cut out a 4.9 mm combs and place in the swarm catching frame to use as a seed comb in the dadant box. For a queen excluder I am thinking of getting those plastic excluder and using two ad cuting them to size maybe bounding them with wood with a few wooden slats (one landing at the seam) or some such idea. Or what size hardware cloth will allow workerbees to pass freely yet exclude the queen? I'm trying to be creative here guys so bear with me. If really like these hives I may sell the equipment on a small scale, but I will have to see.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kiel WI, USA
    Posts
    2,368

    Question

    So the Jumbo boxes on the Swienty site are 12 frames?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    >I am quite set on making the jumbo dadant supers. They only weight 50lbs. Thats a heck of alot lighter than my lang deeps for certain lol. I due have to find the hieght of those supers though? I here they are 6" tall but not sure?

    What size frames are these? If you build a 13 frame (19 7/8" x 19 7/8") box in shallow it will be 5 3/4" deep (or some people make them 5 11/16") it will weigh 65 pounds full. Managable, but not 50 pounds.

    If you build a square box in mediums it will be 6 5/8" deep and will weigh 78 pounds full.

    If you build a square box in deeps it will be 9 5/8" deep and will weigh 120 pounds full.

    >I am thinking of making rather fancier once like Brother Adam used with a 0ne inch drop from back to front to facilitate water dranage. But this is a maybe?

    I always thought that was a good design, but then I started doing screened bottom boards, so the slope didn't seem so important. Of course this may be a miscalculation on my part because the slope of the cover or inner cover may be just as important to prevent condensation drips on the cluster.

    >I was just trying to figure if the hive maintained top or bottom bee space since alot of european designs have bottom. But answered my own question.

    Honestly, American hives have both. There is typically 1/8" bottom space and 1/4" top space, if you don't use frame rests. I think if you are going to build Dadant deep boxes I'd do them the same as any other Langstroth equipment.

    >I think I really like the idea of a single deep jumbo box. That with the proper supers will allow for a much shorter stacked colony, at least half the height of a langstroth colony.

    Another option is to go with twice the width of an eight frame box for the brood box and two eight frame boxes wide the rest of the way up. You'll end up with about 18 frames in the brood box. A little more unlimited brood space, a litle shorter and more managable supers. You could also, if you want to make all your own anyway, make a half of a Dadant deep super.

    >For a queen excluder I am thinking of getting those plastic excluder and using two ad cuting them to size maybe bounding them with wood with a few wooden slats (one landing at the seam) or some such idea. They would be 9 9/16" wide and hold five frames spaces a bit wide (better for honey anyway). If you put Dadant deep frames in a super this wide it would weigh 50 pounds full of honey. Not a bad weight to handle and all your frames are the same size. Deeps this size would weigh 45 pounds.

    I think I'd get the wood bound metal ones and just make a frame that is a little wider on the sides. The wood on the sides will only be 1 13/16" wider so you could make the sides 2 9/16" wide and cut a 3/8" groove for the excluder to fit in.

    >Or what size hardware cloth will allow workerbees to pass freely yet exclude the queen?

    No such thing. #5 is what the African beekeepers use. It's called "Coffee wire" there because the use it to screen coffee beans. The bees can get through. The queen cannot, but as you know, #5 is what we use for pollen traps to make them lose their pollen load. A very tight squeeze, not what I would call "passing freely." But it will let the workers through and not the queen. Of course if you have an upper and lower entrance there will be LESS traffic going through the #5 screen and pollen won't be going there anyway, but I always worry about wear and tear on the wings.



    [This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited January 19, 2004).]

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    crown point, NY, USA
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    971

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    Hi MB,

    I have just got a response from Dave Cushman who is quite well versed in Dadant hives. He has told me that it is more common to have the deep boxes at 11.5". Brother Adams boxes were 12" due to the fact that his bottom boards had a 1/2" splinth around them that locked into the hive body requiring the extra 1/2". So I think common 1x12 should work for that.

    As for my 50 lb supers. I was going by what Br. Adam said here as he used a 6 inch super. I have now decided not to use one like anyone else. I think I will use common wood stock withs either 1x6 (5 1/2") or 1x8 (7 1/2"). It just seems to make sense to make supers in commonly available wood widths. Since I have to build my own anyways. I plan on running 10 or 11 frames in the supers. Well this is my thoughts at the momment so they may change 10 more times by spring

    I have lots of metal bound excluders so I think I will try your idea of putting wood around them. I have #5 mesh too so will try that also. I will try the plastic excluders too. I will see what I like best.

    Clay



  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
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    I run my Dadant brood chambers as 12 frames with two follower boards made of 1/4" plywood. Thirteen frames are a real squeeze because we have lots of propolis here. I run the 20X20" supers with a standard depth medium frame using both the nine and eight frame Stoller spacers. I think this gives me ten and eleven frames in the supers. I put handle cleats all the way around and do not find these supers too heavy. I will however in about five more years. Thirty years ago my buddy suggested we go with all shallow supers to cope with in our old age. I should of listened, I'm getting there fast. Standard 1X12's are a tad shallow for the brood boxes. The frames are 11 1/4" and a standard 1X12 is often not much more than 11 1/2" wide. I added strips to the bottom of the supers as they seem to have shrunk over the 25 years they have been in service. Some need replacement as do my Slatted racks.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    >I run my Dadant brood chambers as 12 frames with two follower boards made of 1/4" plywood. Thirteen frames are a real squeeze because we have lots of propolis here.

    In small cell you can plane the bars and get 1 1/4" wide spacing instead of 1 3/8". With this you can get 11 frames in a 10 frame box. You can get 14 frames in a 19 7/8" square box. With your followers you only end up with 2 extra frames over a standard 10 frame and only 1 extra frame over 11 small cell frames in a 10 frame box. And 11 small cell Dadant deep frames have 115,500 cells on them. 12 large cell Dadant deep frames have 105,000 cells on them. 14 frames of Dadant deep small cell has 147,000 cells on them.

    >I run the 20X20" supers with a standard depth medium frame using both the nine and eight frame Stoller spacers. I think this gives me ten and eleven frames in the supers.

    I've thought of making it an even 20 x 20". Does this work out well?

    >I put handle cleats all the way around and do not find these supers too heavy.

    If you rip down a 1 x 8 to make the 6 5/8" you can use the scrap for the cleats.

    >I will however in about five more years. Thirty years ago my buddy suggested we go with all shallow supers to cope with in our old age. I should of listened, I'm getting there fast.

    And you can rip down a 1 x 8 to make 5 3/4" or rip down a 1 x 6 to make a 4 3/4" extra shallow. And in all cases use the scrap for the handle cleat. Since I just make a butt joint on my box, I would rip the board before cutting to legnth, then the frame rest sides are 18 3/8" long with a rabbet and the other sides are 19 7/8" long. I can cut the scrap to be two 19 7/8" long pieces to put on the non-rabbeted sides (the 19 7/8" sides) and two 21 3/8" pieces to run past the joints to tie it all together and screw into the ends of the the sides and the ends of the other cleats.

    >Standard 1X12's are a tad shallow for the brood boxes. The frames are 11 1/4" and a standard 1X12 is often not much more than 11 1/2" wide.

    I agree. When I get a 1 x 12 it's often only 11 1/4". If you have an 11 1/4" frame and a 1/4" beespace at the top that leaves your frames sticking out 1/4" at the bottom. I suppose if you never try to move the box and set it on something flat, you could just make your bottom board a little taller, but I like having the extra on the box if I have a seperate bottom board so I can set the box on something flat wihtout pushing the frames up.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
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    crown point, NY, USA
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    MB writes:

    >I've thought of making it an even 20 x 20". >Does this work out well?

    I don't see what it will hurt. Its only an 1/8 anyways.

    >I agree. When I get a 1 x 12 it's often >only 11 1/4". If you have an 11 1/4" frame >and a 1/4" beespace at the top that leaves >your frames sticking out 1/4" at the >bottom. I suppose if you never try to move >the box and set it on something flat, you >could just make your bottom board a little >taller, but I like having the extra on the >box if I have a seperate bottom board so I >can set the box on something flat wihtout >pushing the frames up.

    You guys are probably right. I will have to play this by ear. If my lumber is closer to 11 1/4" then I will add to the box. If it work out to 11 1/2" and the frames rest flush with the bottom then I may not. You can get away with this on the brood chambers as they are single chambers. But the supers must have proper bee space.

    I have just ordered a really good dado for my tablesaw (my old one is about junk now). If there's enough intrest in people wanting to use dadant hives I may just start offering dadant frames for sale (limited quantities). Maybe covers and bottom boards too.


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    Posts
    5,159

    Question

    >>I agree. When I get a 1 x 12 it's often >only 11 1/4". If you have an 11 1/4" frame >and a 1/4" beespace at the top that leaves >your frames sticking out 1/4" at the >bottom. I suppose if you never try to move >the box and set it on something flat, you >could just make your bottom board a little >taller, but I like having the extra on the >box if I have a seperate bottom board so I >can set the box on something flat wihtout >pushing the frames up.


    Why not use a 1 x 14 (13.25) and have some extra bee cluster space below the brood area? Would the extra 1.75" be too much?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
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    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
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    Question

    Opps! Must have double-tapped...

    [This message has been edited by BULLSEYE BILL (edited January 20, 2004).]

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    >Why not use a 1 x 14 (13.25) and have some extra bee cluster space below the brood area? Would the extra 1.75" be too much?

    I've never seen a 1 x 14. I would guess they are expensive if you could find them. I HAVE seen the laminated boards and they are expensive.

    The bees would build some comb on the bottom, but since there is never a box below, I don't know that it would hurt anything.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    San Mateo, CA
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    If you can find 1X14 it is very expensive per board foot. Hey, if you were only going to run them as singles you could build you're slatted rack in that space as part of the super.

    I was being lazy when I said 20X20. If you use this dimension the frames might not rest properly and drop down. I actually make them 19 7/8 or whatever it is supposed to be.

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