Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Wayne, NJ USA
    Posts
    381

    Post

    In early spring, when stating a new package on Permacomb is it necessary(or a good idea)to feed syrup?

    Also, should a 3lb package be started on a single medium super w/PC or should they be started on two medium supers w/PC? My concern is just how fast they will fill out a single medium since they don't have to draw out comb. This is also linked into my first question on feeding. Seems like they might just blow through a single especially if they have a pail of syrup 3 inches away!

    Ok, just one last one. If I were to split a three pound package into 2 hives (and get a second queen,)would the now two new hives using PC keep pace with a single new hive using 2 deeps, new wax foundation and a 3 lb package? If I wasn't looking to standardize on medium supers, I think that I would give this a try. Anyway, I'm interested in your experience & thoughts on starting up new hives w/PC and package bees. thanks, cj

    [This message has been edited by Sungold (edited December 09, 2003).]

    [This message has been edited by Sungold (edited December 09, 2003).]

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    Posts
    5,159

    Post

    >In early spring, when stating a new package on Permacomb is it necessary(or a good idea)to feed syrup?


    Yes, feed syrup as long as they will take it, or at least until the three brood boxes are filled. If you stop feeding in summer be sure to feed enough in the fall to fill the three brood boxes for winter. My slower to build colonys had to be fed all summer and fall.

    >Also, should a 3lb package be started on a single medium super w/PC or should they be started on two medium supers w/PC? My concern is just how fast they will fill out a single medium since they don't have to draw out comb. This is also linked into my first question on feeding. Seems like they might just blow through a single especially if they have a pail of syrup 3 inches away!


    John Seets recomends at least two brood boxes right off. I used two with nine frame spacing on my swarms. Unfortunatly McCary elected to fill later orders first and I did not get any packages, so I can not attest as to how quickly a package will fill out the two broods. My swarms were basically all mutts with unknown quality of queens. Some did fine and some were not very good. If you want a really fast start, put your package on a frame of brood, what a difference!

    >Ok, just one last one. If I were to split a three pound package into 2 hives (and get a second queen,)would the now two new hives using PC keep pace with a single new hive using 2 deeps, new wax foundation and a 3 lb package? If I wasn't looking to standardize on medium supers, I think that I would give this a try. Anyway, I'm interested in your experience & thoughts on starting up new hives w/PC and package bees. thanks, cj


    I would think that the disadvantage of splitting a package into a one and a half lb. colony would certainly not make any surplus and may not even fill out three boxes unless you have perfect conditions. My experiance here in the Heartland would be that it could not possibly work, maybe somewhere else it could. Perhaps if you put a pound and a half on a freme of brood, it might keep pace with a three pound package, maybe.

    Feeding just syrup would not be enough to get a quick brood build up. You need to feed pollen too. I feed Bee-Pro Pollen patties in the late winter/early spring and it really helps.

    In the end, it depends wether you want to grow bees or produce honey.

    I think that this year I will kill every swarm queen I catch, (unless it is from one of mine) and give the swarm one or two frames of my brood to get off to a good start and to insure that I have the same stock that I have been trying to propogate.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,136

    Post

    I started a package this spring with a two pound package in a 5 frame nuc with a feeder on top. That hive ended up split into five new hives ranging from five medium boxes to 1 medium box each.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Catonsville, MD. USA
    Posts
    251

    Cool

    Sungold;

    "In early spring, when stating a new package on Permacomb is it necessary(or a good idea)to feed syrup?"

    As Bill indicated, yes, feed until they don't want anymore. In as much as the comb is already drawn, they still rim the cells with wax and will even draw it out further if you use the 9 frames configuration (recommended). Plus, feeding the bees 1:1 sugar syrup helps stimulate the bees to get the queen to lay eggs (preferably starting in February). The bees will polish the cells with propolis before using them. Weather must be conducive for them to collect and process it. Wax comb or PermaComb, there must be a sufficient population of foragers for the bees to fill the comb when the flow starts. It's usefull to think in terms of the bee calendar - 40 days from egg to foraging age for any bee.


    >Also, should a 3lb package be started on a single medium super w/PC or should they be started on two medium supers w/PC? My concern is just how fast they will fill out a single medium since they don't have to draw out comb. This is also linked into my first question on feeding. Seems like they might just blow through a single especially if they have a pail of syrup 3 inches away!

    Put 2 mediums on; pull out the middle five frames of the top super and dump the package bees in AFTER installing the queen cage with a hole in the candy at the top middle of the bottom super. After the bees have settled in, replace the removed frames (how fast they "settle in" depends on the temperature). Again, depending on the weather, depends how fast they will fill/egg-up the super (assuming we ARE talking brood chambers). All things ideal, it should happen fairly quickly. Also, Carney's build up faster in the spring than Caucs or Italians. (Buckfasts are actually Italians for all intents and purposes). Keep an eye on their progress. If you can't check but every once and awhile, I'd play it safe and add the 3rd super at install time. Depends on your bee schedule.

    Also, like Bill said, a frame or 2 of capped/larvae eggs underneath the queen cage goes a long way getting the colony jumpstarted. I ALWAYS do this when starting a new hive (with PC of course).


    >Ok, just one last one. If I were to split a three pound package into 2 hives (and get a second queen,)would the now two new hives using PC keep pace with a single new hive using 2 deeps, new wax foundation and a 3 lb package? If I wasn't looking to standardize on medium supers, I think that I would give this a try. Anyway, I'm interested in your experience & thoughts on starting up new hives w/PC and package bees. thanks, cj

    Like Bill said. Bad idea, in my opinion. Pushing the "drawn comb" concept a bit too far although it would be interesting to hear what happens should you decide to do this. Basic Bee behaviour: In early Spring it usually is pretty cool/cold. The bees need sufficient mass to raise brood (92-96 deg F.) and with too small a mass of bees to maintain this temperature (and food to generate heat, of course), the bees will postpone raising the brood until the temps are suitable for the cluster to do so. Oh, yes - did I mention pollen, too, like Bill said.

    Mike, YOU DA MAN!!

    Hope this helps.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,136

    Post

    If you want two hives from one package, just let the first get going well and then split it. Just let them raise a queen. I prefer to do this in a five frame nuc in the spring when the weather is still likely to get cold. In the summer it doesn't make much difference.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Wayne, NJ USA
    Posts
    381

    Post

    Thanks for the feedback. I was just concerned about the potential of explosive growth by starting a 3lb pack on a single medium box "w/PC". John has set me straight on starting with two mediums. This is going to be interesting to see how quickly they fill (eggs/honey) pre-drawn comb.

    Just trying to anticipate the situation as much as possible so as to limit having to react. cj

    [This message has been edited by Sungold (edited December 11, 2003).]

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,136

    Post

    With PermaComb, you should keep an eye out. They will fill everything up much quicker.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    belews creek,nc
    Posts
    160

    Post

    Just wondering,how many bees are there in a 3 pound pkg. vs a 5lb pkg? Also how many med. supers of pc would you need to start out with a 5lb. pkg? How about a nuc?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,136

    Post

    I would just buy the three pounders. It's about the right size. 5 pounds won't build up much faster and 2 is a bit small, but if the post office doesn't kill too many, 2 pounds does pretty well too.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Catonsville, MD. USA
    Posts
    251

    Cool

    My personal preference is a 4 pounder for hives you are starting on PC and want a surplus crop the first year. The extra pound usually doesn't cost much more than three and after the bees work out the division of labor in the hive, you end up with a greater number of foragers out collecting sooner!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Eagle Creek, Oregon
    Posts
    289

    Post

    Yesterday I read an article about balancing the queens ability to the colonies needs. It raised the theory that a colony/package may almost immediately supercede a new queen that it perceives to be performing poorly. The newly introduced queen requires a period of time to come up to speed and the colony sees this as a fatal flaw. The article was by Richard Bonney and appeared in the 8/98 Bee Culture magazine. http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture...ul/98jul4.html The article said, in part:"A package may be installed on foundation, on drawn comb, or on a combination of the two. A new queen installed with a package on foundation is in balance. The queen is prepared to lay at a low rate, and the number of available cells is initially low, as are other colony resources. They will build together. A new queen installed with a package on drawn comb may not be in balance. The queen is prepared to lay at a low rate, but hundreds of drawn cells may be empty and waiting. The colony may perceive an imbalance." I would like to start a package on two boxes of Permacomb, is this something that I should waste any time worrying about? I want to promote a quick buildup but I don't want to risk losing the queen first thing.

    George, who is suffering from newbie jitters.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,136

    Post

    I think you worry too much. I've seen the bees build some supercedure cells early, probably because they aren't sure how the queen is going to do. Then tear them down when she does well. But they will do fine regardless. If they do supercede there is a good chance there will be little or no gap in the laying of eggs because they probably won't kill the old queen until the other is laying and they still may not kill her at all.

    Don't worry. Be happy.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads