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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    mn, wi, tx
    Posts
    174

    Post

    A serious problem in colder climates is the accumulation of moisture in hives during winter. The warm moist vapor rising off the cluster of bees hits a very cold upper reaches of the hive. The moisture condenses and freezes, only to thaw later and drip on the cluster, killing bees. This moisture also causes problems with mold and fungus, and surely contributes to other problems such as chalkbrood and chillbrood.

    I would love to here a discussion of the many solutions that beekeepers have tried in their struggles with this problem.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    Posts
    5,159

    Post

    I raise one corner of the inner cover and put in a small stick about 1/8th to 1/4 diameter to keep some ventilation moving. One might also raise the back side higher so the condensation will drain to front and down the wall to the exit. We haven't been down to ten degrees yet and it was 70 today. I always enjoy this January thaw...
    Bill

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Festus, MO
    Posts
    33

    Lightbulb

    Try a Screen Bottom board.
    Bigearl

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,593

    Post

    I have an inner cover with about three times as many holes covered with hardware cloth and a medium box with vents in the side and a piece of plywood for the ventilated top. Sometimes I cut the holes in the inner cover the size of a mason jar so I can put a jar on as a feeder in the spring.

    Here's some pictures of the inner cover: http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/bush/bush6.htm

    Here's a some pictures of the vent box: http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/bush/bush3.htm

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,611

    Arrow

    I leave the standard hive entrance (3/8" high) open all year round on my hives. Most of the hives have a notch in the outer cover that will allow bees to escape through the top.

    This winter I am trying a new inner cover made from plexi-glass. http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/barry/barry_13.htm
    I have been monitoring it since it went on in the Fall and I am surprised at what I see. Contrary to what I thought, I see virtually no moisture under the inner cover once it got cold. In the Fall (when the above photo was taken) when the temps were still mild is when I saw the moisture. I would also see the bees up under the lid gathering the moisture.

    I would suggest you try a clear inner cover on your hives to see exactly what the moisture situation is in your wintering hives.

    Regards,
    Barry

    [This message has been edited by Barry (edited January 09, 2003).]

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,593

    Post

    I don't see any holes in the plexiglass. I would have expected the standard one in the middle. How difficult was the inner cover to make with plexiglass? I like the idea all year round because I can peek inside and see the activity and general health without opening it.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Neodesha, Ks
    Posts
    623

    Post

    Hi Guys, Isn't it great to have a site like this to exchange tricks, ideas and etc. Interesting to see the different kinds of inner covers. One can always learn if we always keep an open mind. We can't possibly live long enough to make ALL the mistakes.
    I thought I would tell you what I have been doing. Visited a beekeeper friend and he showed me a Syrup feeder that he has used in the past. It was made by Superbee Inc. Montrose, Co. I modifyed it to suit me. It is the shape of a hive body and 4" tall. On one end you place a board 3/8" back from the end keeping 3/8" bee space down from the top.Then you place 1/8" hdw. cloth over this area and extend the hdw. cloth out over the divider board keeping 3/8" beespace between the hdw.cloth. This provides a space for the bees to come up out of the hive, over the top of the board and down to the syrup. The advantage of this is you can refill it with disturbing the bees. Place the opening for the bees to come up at the front of the hive, that way the syrup will always drain towards the bees. The one I made will hold about 4 Gal. of syrup. Sorry I don't have a way to post a picture. Questions just E-mail me. Dale

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,593

    Post

    I have several rigged up this way. Some came that way. I think I bought them from http://www.bee-commerce.com./ Other's I have from Brushy Mountain http://www.beeequipment.com/shop.aspcame with a float and I changed them over to what you described with very little trouble. With the hardware cloth and a minimum space, making the trip down and back to the syrup works well and I have very few dead bees. My only complaint is when you do have dead bees they are harder to clean out.

    I also have feeders from http://www.beeworks.com/uspage5.asp
    that sit on top of the hole in the inner cover and allow you to fill them without opening the hive or facing any bees. They hold plenty of syrup for me for spring stimulus or essential oil treatments.
    http://www.beeworks.com/uspage5.asp

    Speaking of moisture, that is one complaint I have with the hive top feeders. more exposed surface of syrup means more moisture. Also the syrup or honey dries out and crystalizes if the bees don't take it quick enough.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,611

    Post

    Michael -

    The plexi-glass cover does not have any notches or holes in it for venting or bee escape. However, this hive consists of 3 medium brood chambers and the top chamber/super has a half circle (1") cut into it right at the front bottom edge in the middle. The reason for this is these supers use to be full depth with 1" holes drilled into them for access. When I converted everything over to mediums, it just so happened that these holes were dead center where the cut was for mediums. I left them there.

    So this hive has the fully open front bottom entrance 3/8" high and this half circle opening in the top chamber facing the front, between the 2nd and 3rd box.

    The cover is very easy to make. I simply cut the glass the same size as the hive body, made strips of wood 3/4" x 3/8" thick and cut them to fit around the edge of it on both sides. Drill screw holes from one side through the glass so the screw doesn't catch it and attach them together. This created a space above the top bars that is more than 3/8" but as you can see, the bees only built a couple of small pieces of burr comb. If they continue, I'll put thinner wood on the one side.

    It's a nice way to monitor mites. I took some pictures yesterday of a small group of bees on the top bars as it was about 60 degrees out. I was able to spot some varroa on the bees. I will post them soon. I know Dennis Murrell can pretty well figure his mite load in the hive by counting mites this way.

    Regards,
    Barry

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,611
    Hi all -

    Anyone is welcome to send me pictures for posting. Either attach to email as a jpeg or send me a hard copy via snail mail. Please contact me first before sending so I am aware what is coming.

    Regards,
    Barry

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Casper, Wy, USA
    Posts
    806

    Post

    Hello Everyone,

    My experience with a plex inner cover indicates that excessive moisture may not be as extensive a problem as generally assumed. I would suggest that everyone monitor the moisture with a plex inner cover and the share the results.

    I actually fill a boardman feeder with water and keep it in the top box my 3 story hives. The feeder is left empty on the sunny side of the hive and is filled in late winter once brood rearing begins. I filled them last week.

    Once the bees learn where the water is located they will break cluster and get a drink. I have seen 4 or more inches of water disappear from the feeder in a 24 hour period. The first few times I thought the feeders were leaking and would fill them up again. They might sit for a week or 10 days with very little change, then the bees would get thirst and take a drink.

    Don't expect to see lots of bees drinking the water. Usually less than a dozen, even on a warm day.

    When brood rearing accelerates in late winter to early spring, the feeders will be emptied in a week or so.

    I remove the feeders once the bees can fly freely without danger of being frozen while foraging for water.

    Best Wishes
    Dennis
    Knowing my bees need canteens and not umbrellas

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Marion, North Carolina
    Posts
    423

    Post

    Concerning Moisture, I recently bought the hive kit from www.beeworks.com. My moisture problem is not an issue anymore. It costs a little, but it was worth more than I paid for it. Here's the link, read the detail, I think it will be worth your time.
    http://www.beeworks.com/ModKit.htm

    Hope this helps.

    Thesurveyor

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,593

    Post

    I have also bought quite a few of the mod kits from beeworks. I love them.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    medesto,indiana,usa
    Posts
    257

    Post

    I usually put a candy pattie on newspaper over the top bars of the brood chamber and this absorbs most of the moisture plus makes the candy easier for the bees to eat.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,611

    Arrow

    Hi all -

    I posted some recent pictures of my "plex" hive showing bees under it with mites on them. Also a couple of shots of the clusters on 3 of my hives.
    http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/barry/index.htm

    -Barry

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    Posts
    5,159

    Post

    Thanks for the pics. Barry.
    One question, what size bee was the mite on?
    Bill

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Danbury,Ct. USA
    Posts
    1,966

    Post

    Hi Guys,
    I certainly agree that this is a great way to learn and share. What I do I learned in places like this. My system is to use the Miller feeder thats on this site (with the bee access in the middle) on all year. When the feeding stops, it provides a place for ventilation. with these and the screened bottom boards I've never seen bees cluster out side. I don't use inner covers. In the winter I left them on and filled them with ceader chips. I covered the telescoping cover with aluminum on the inside and left it on a tilt. My idea was that if some warm humid air condensed on it, it would run down the cover and not back into the hive. I worry some that I left them too much air but it seems that dampness is more dangerous than cold. I'll let you know. The bottom boards are closed up for the winter.

    Dickm

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Evansville, IN, USA
    Posts
    2,837

    Question

    Barry,

    Your plexi-glass photos are great! The one showing the "puddles" under the glass, illustrates just how much water is in the hive.

    You commented that you "see virtually no moisture under the cover once it got cold".
    What do you think happen?

    Are see-thru covers common?

    Your cover seems to "trap" moisture (no holes). What does this say about all of the techniques of removing water, like upper entrances, air gaps between suppers and covers, absorption methods, etc.

    Dave W

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,611

    Post

    Hi Bill -

    >One question, what size bee was the mite on?

    All my hives are "4.9" hives. The bee was not small in size, compared to some of the bees you will see in the spring and fall. It looked like your average bee from cells in the 5.4 range. I can say with confidence that my bees have varroa, yet they are healthy.

    Regards,
    Barry

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,611

    Post

    Hi Dave -

    > You commented that you "see virtually
    > no moisture under the cover once it got
    > cold". What do you think happen?

    I don't know all the dynamics involved with ventilation, but it proved to me that the moisture inside the hive during our cold winters is not a problem. When the bees are clustered and least mobile, the moisture is not there. When I do see moisture hanging under the glass, the bees are mobile and able to work it. I really expected to see a lot more moisture the colder it got. Not the case here.

    > Are see-thru covers common?

    Not that I know of. You have to make one if you want one. I've never seen them available for sale.

    > Your cover seems to "trap" moisture (no > holes).
    > What does this say about all of
    > the techniques of removing water, like
    > upper entrances, air gaps between
    > suppers and covers, absorption methods, etc.

    Good question! To me, one can spend a lot of time and money on "gadgets" to "remove" moisture, or ventilate. However, if you really don't know what is going on inside the hive, you could very well be wasting your money. We tend to assume a lot when it comes to beekeeping and do what everyone else does because if they do it, it must be the thing to do.

    I talk with Dennis M. on the phone often and I'm often challenged in my thoughts. He likes to know why things are happening, and is a very observant beekeeper. The plex cover was his idea and it is just another way for us to study the bees interacting with the moisture and mites at least. I try to see what the bees do in the feral and apply that to my hives. Maybe Dennis will share some info he has about studies done in this area. He shared them with me but I don't want to get it wrong in repeating it.

    Regards,
    Barry

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