Permacomb

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I would like some input from anyone who has used Permacomb. I saw the ad in ABJ and e-mailed for info. John Seets (jseets@northropgrumman.com) sent me a word document and the product looks promising. It comes in mediums only and costs $3.50 per frame in case lots only (10), plus shipping. It's plastic, fully drawn out, (sorry, no 4.9), and durrable enough to be pressure washed at the car wash, up to 220 degrees! Worker size cells only. He said that he has used it for 27 years so I know that someone out there has had to have used it.
Thanks, Bill

[Michael Bush]

I wonder how many people would have to want it to make it practical for them to produce 4.9mm or 4.85 or something similar. This sounds like just what I want, except the wrong size.

I thought I remembered hearing of such a thing, but couldn't find anything on it.

[Michael Bush]

I wonder if you got wax the right temprature if you could dunk it and get walls thick enough to leave small cells.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Michael wrote;
I wonder how many people would have to want it to make it practical for them to produce 4.9mm or 4.85 or something similar. This sounds like just what I want, except the wrong size.

Reply;
I would imagine if it has been used for more than 27 years, and they have not produced anything except mediums, they are not likely to make anything else. I e-mailed John and asked him about it, I'll keep you informed.

Michael
I thought I remembered hearing of such a thing, but couldn't find anything on it.

Reply;
I would e-mail John at the address in my above post. His document has some nice pictures and more information. I think that I will place an order.

The selling points that sold me are;
Fully drawn plastic comb - not foundation
Cells drawn on both sides at normal angle
Longevity - buy it once
No assembly right out of the box
Boilable - steam clean
Wax moth and hive beetle resistant
Unalterable by the bees
Use for both honey and brood
One piece molded with ears
Indestructible
Fast extracting speeds, 900 - 1100 rpm
Will not absorb chemicles
Unnaffected by high pressure hose
100% worker cells
No acceptance problem by bees
Guaranteed for 10 years, except the ears
Comes with 9 & 10 frame reversible strip spacers

For every pound of wax the bees don't have to make we get eight pounds more honey.
A bee package takes off right away.
A good reason to quit those heavy deeps.

Is this too good to be true? And why hasn't it been in wider use?

Oh well, I tried perco at half the cost and put up with the brace comb and the poor cell drawing habits, I can try this too. So far this hobby has been cheeper than bars and, well all that goes with that...

Bill

[Michael Bush]

I emailed him and ordered 10 frames. I will try waxing it to get smaller cells and see how it goes.

I agree, it's hard to believe this hasn't caught on, but maybe he hasn't advertised enough. I have lost so many nice combs to wax moths this sounds wonderful. I haven't had to deal with small hive beetles but it sounds like they would have a hard time existing in it. It does sound heavy, which may be part of the reason for only making mediums.

I think you're right, if he hasn't changed it in 27 years, it probably won't happen. Unless someone could offer to finance the venture of making the old 4.85 size.

I would think it would be a big jump start for a swarm to have drawn comb for the queen to start laying in.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed. With my bad back, I hope that I have bought my last deep.
I do wonder though, if a colony had no other comb than this worker size comb available to them,(no other foundation), what would they do to make drone cells? Perhaps fill in any available space like they would for a queen cell? Humm...
Bill

[Michael Bush]

Bees will build stuff in that "bee space" that they are not supposed to. I would guess you are right, they would build some somewhere.

[dharbert]

Michael,

I talked to Mr. Seets and he told me that the bees will build drone comb on the bottom of the frames because the space there is larger than on a regular frame. I am going to order 20 frames and see how well it works. I just found out I can't lift any heavy weights so this might be the answer.

[This message has been edited by dharbert (edited January 06, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

Looking at the listed weight and from my experience with RiteCell etc. I would say the perma comb will be heavier. The medium depth will be lighter. If you want lighter, plastic won't help. On the other hand, it sounds wonderful not to be fighting the moths anymore and to have that kind of jump start for a colony.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Michael,
All my bee equipment is 70 miles away, could you weigh one fully drawn medium if you have one and one of the permacomb when you get them? I am thinking that there will be very little difference, obviously the plastic should be heavier, but wax is heavy too. Ten frames with shipping box is 14 lbs, so the permacomb should be about 1.2 lbs. Thanks,
Bill

[Michael Bush]

I will try to weigh them and let you know, but I know from Rite cell that a fully drawn plastic foundation weighs noticeably more than a fully drawn wax one. I'm not saying it's a lot, but I have to take it into account when I load my extractor or it will get out of balance.

[dharbert]

When I talked to Mr. Seets, he told me a box of 20 frames weighed 28 lbs.

[Michael Bush]

Maybe I have found the fly in the ointment for PermaComb. There are basic dimensional differences. The first clue is looking at his demonstration photo of a full super. The picture shows frames that were obviously connected solidly between the box above and the one below. This may be partly due to no bars top and bottom. Studies in the early part of the previous century showed that thicker bars helped to prevent this kind of attachment. Of course thinner ones allow more honey per frame. PermaComb has cells all the way to the top and bottom. This attaching is probably acceptable in supers, although more messy but I wouldn't want it in the brood chamber.

But there are other dimensions that vary from the norm. These are based on the document sent to me giving the diminsions. Also note that the documentation says:
"Depth: 6" (Ideal super depth is 6 3/8”)".

A standard medium box is 6 5/8"

To summerize:
PermaComb/Standard frame dimensions:
PermaComb Standard Difference
main comb width: 17 1/2" 17 3/4" -1/4"
frame height: 6" 6 1/4" -1/4"

Correct dimensions for box:
PermaComb Standard Difference
Box length: 19 1/2" 19 3/4" -1/4"
Frame rest Notch width: 1/2" 3/8" +1/8"
(to make the 19" bars come out right with a bee space on the sides.

To put it another way a beespace is between 1/4" and 3/8". In a standard Lanstroth hive box:
PermaComb Standard Difference
Frame End Beespace 3/8" 1/4" 1/8"
Bottom Beespace 5/8" 3/8" 1/4"

3/8" on the end bars is still in the outside tolerance for beespace, but it is right on the outside. The 5/8" on the bottom is 1/4" over the outside tolerance for beespace.

I still think if it works as well as I hope, and I can coat it with wax to get small cells, I will go to it. If the small cell move doesn't work I may use it for extracted honey supers. I make most of my own equipment anyway and it's close enough to standard that I can still put standard lids, inner covers, escape boards etc. on.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

That 1/4 inch of extra space glared at me too, however I thought that I might glue a venere along the bottom if it created a problem. It would be a good area for drone cells if they decided that they needed them. I hadn't thought of the top bar problem. If you want a cell building blockade between the frames (verticaly), how about filling a few rows with fiberglas resin, wax, or some other acceptable filler?
Bill

[Michael Bush]

Both ideas (the veneer and the filling) have crossed my mind. I think the bee space is the first thing to address. The end space is larger, but still within bee space tolerance (if everything is perfectly centered etc.). The bottom space is the one that is completely out. I can either make my own 6 3/8" boxes, cut some down or add a veneer. The advantages to adding it is it will create that bottom bar effect and allow the use of normal boxes. I am begining to think I'll need 10 or 20 more frames to do a decent test. I still think the idea is wonderful.

Too bad they didn't make them 1/4" deeper.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I hate to assume anything, BUT, if they are truly as durrable as advertised they will outlast the box. So the least hassle would be to dedicate the box, mark or brand it, throw it on the table saw and zip off the 1/4 inch and call it good.
Bill

[Michael Bush]

I think it would be worth finding out which works better. Cutting the box down or adding the strip. I don't mind cutting the box down if PermaComb works as well as I hope it does. Only the bees will tell.

[dragonfly]

Is there a website that has photos of these? I haven't been able to find much on the web with any information. Thanks

[Michael Bush]

There is nothing on the web. I emailed Mr. Seets at jseets@northropgrumman.com. He sent a Word document that had diminsions, descriptions and pictures. He has been quite responsive and good to work with. I'm sure he'd be happy to send them to you.

[thesurveyor]

Could someone post the information in the document from Mr. Seets? I believe I will order about 40 frames to try.

Thanks
Thesurveyor