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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    Neodesha, Ks
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    594

    Post

    A while back there was a post about applying FGMO to hives using SSB's which the fellow said he used a piece of copper pipe to direct the fog up into the hive from the bottom. Well I quit thinking and got busy and made such a pipe to try it my self. Approx. 175 Deg. bend on the end to direct the fog into the hive and approx. 85Deg. bend at waist level. I was supprised how hot the pipe got 8" to 10" from the fogger. I will have to design some kind of insulation over the pipe as it gets to hot to hold in your bare hand. To think we have been putting all this heat into the hive. Anyway it was an interesting experment. What are your thoughts??????? Dale in S.E. Ks.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    West Harrison, NY, USA
    Posts
    261

    Post

    Hi,

    I was involved in the discussion of adding an extension to the nozzle of the fogger. As it turns out, you can insulate the nozzle for your own safety somehow, but you can't extend it longer and longer so that it gets colder at the front end because the fog itself will be less cool and begin to condense into bigger (less useful) dropplets.
    HOWEVER, last weekend I learned the hard way the usefulness of another modification to the fogger: a shield in front of the heating chamber. Cut the bottom of a coffee can at 1 inch or so from the bottom and fix it to the front of the fogger (wirh the screw that hold the little front shield that it comes with), with the inside of the can pointing back so that the walls left cover a little of the heating chamber).
    The other day I was fogging with the tip of the nozzle slightly inside the hive (through the SBB) when the fogger went KaBoooom !!! Some uncombusted gas must have accumulated around the chamber and suddely exploded. This happened outside the hive of course but sent a wave of hot air into it through the SBB opening that scorched a few hundred bees. They kept trying to fly out and drop to the ground right in front of the hive for a long time. What a sad thing to watch!
    My hand (the one holding the fogger) was far away enough so I felt nothing. I suspect that I would have felt a little more burning with the shield on, but probably nothing serious.

    I hope my description of the shield is clear. I could send a photo if anyone wants me to.

    Jorge

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA and Alcala, Spain
    Posts
    553

    Post

    Hello folks.
    Caution!
    I have tried time and again to warn about adding gadgets to the Burgess fogger. Reason: there is no need to improve the output of the sprayer as of now. The fogger may require a space between the tip of the fogger and the target for air cooling. Most importantly, this year, my research include hives with open mesh bottoms. Fogging of these hives does not affect the use of the fogger whatsoever!
    I have warned about innovations! You DO NOT submit your hives to any degree of heat if you follow established standards developed through years of repeated field trials.
    Dr. Rodriguez Spanish adage: "those who attempt to re-invent the wheel may get a bumpy ride." he he
    May The Lord guide your ways in keeping our beloved honey bees.
    Dr. Rodriguez

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Neodesha, Ks
    Posts
    594

    Post

    Dr. R. What procedure do you use to get the fog up in the hive with the SSB's? By using the front entrance it seems that a lot of the fog goes out the bottom instead of up into the hive. Comments??????

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    43,492

    Post

    >Dr. R. What procedure do you use to get the fog up in the hive with the SSB's? By using the front entrance it seems that a lot of the fog goes out the bottom instead of up into the hive. Comments??????

    I have SBB's on most of my hives right now. Some have a bigger space at the bottom to fog underneath. Sometimes I fog underneath the bottom board and sometimes I fog the entrance depending on what the bottom board is setting on and how easy either is to get at. It seems to me there is plenty of fog to go around and most of it goes up because it's hot. A lot may come out the bottom but a lot comes out every crack also. Most of mine have some kind of ventilation on the top and the fog pours out of it.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Neodesha, Ks
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    594

    Post

    When I made my SSB's I made the provision for closing them up in the winter. I have slipped the board in when I fog just to get more fog up into the hive and then take them back out. Anyone else do this????????

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Sequim / Wa / USA
    Posts
    175

    Post

    Hi folks
    As Dr R says : There is no need to reinvent the wheel .
    The procedures of using the fogger is explained in the pamphlet .
    It is strongly recommended to ELEVATE the hive off the ground in any case to prevent rotting and provide ventilation. The Screened bottomboard renders it self as a very good tool to provide this ventilation . It in itself asks for an elevation to satisfy all criteria connected with the gadget.
    One is therefore inclined NOT to point the nozzle of the fogger DOWNWARDS . The nozzle should never point down because the fog by air-currents may back up into the heating chamber and thus become a flame thrower . The gadget emits enough fog to satify the treatment without sticking the nozzle onto the bees dwelling at the entry . Fogging from benaeath the screen is certainly effective .
    If there is enough draft , that is ,an opening at the TOP of the hive the fog will eventually exit the top .
    The unknown factor is the density of the cluster and the possible wing action of the bees directing the fog away from where it is most effective . But this possible scenario has to be proven to be deemed as valid . I do not know and assume that the fog does penetrate because of the results in my colonies .
    The explosion incident happened to me also because of inadvertently NOT to adhere to common sense. However ,no bees were affected --- Lucky bees.
    Back to the wing action . At one time ( I have mentioned this before ) I owned a MONSTER hive because of city regulations allowing only one hive per dwelling. So, Mine was TALL. A 6 feet ladder was used to remove supers . Those supers were LOADED with bees and I ventured to SMOKE and STINK them . It was of no awail , the critters blew the smoke and / or stink back to me turning their behinds at me . So much for the effectiveness of smoke , etc in LOADED hives .
    We are all still learning daily and some procedures teach us to discard and others to adopt and to think .
    The idea of a barrier to prevent the fog to back up sounds off hand acceptable but not really required . It would be just another add on to bother with .
    Happy fogging
    JDF

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    St-Faustin-Lac Carre, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    20

    Post

    Dr. R. What procedure do you use to get the fog up in the hive with the SSB's? By using the front entrance it seems that a lot of the fog goes out the bottom instead of up into the hive. Comments??????

    Screen bottom boards should NEVER have an open bottom. It has been demonstrated that open bottom board reduce the inside hive temperature (particularly at night... and depending on the outside temperature). Lower internal temperature is favorable to increased varroas reproduction. Bottom board should always be closed. The best sreen bottom board is the drawer type one.

    ------------------
    Normand Choiniere
    Mont-Tremblant region, Quebec, Canada.
    http://consultus.qc.ca/valmiel

  9. #9
    BILLY BOB Guest

    Post

    cgytm,

    You may need to close your bottom board, but I keep mine open year round! If I lived in Canada I might not do this, but I have herd of several people that keep the bottoms open year around as far north as New York.

    BB

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Sequim / Wa / USA
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    175

    Post

    Normand
    I respectfully disagrree with the notion that bottom boards should be closed . You will find colonies in wide open spaces without ANY man made contraption and those survive in spite of beeing exposed to the elements . It is known that Low temperatures do not affect the bee unless it is extreemly cold for extended periods in addition to moisture . This would apply in regions of the far north such as the northern provinces of Canada , including Quebec . It depends where one is located . Therefore one should refrain from general statements about this aspect . As an example the following event was noted . This was also tested and proven by a German beekeeper which was instrumental to introduce the sbb idea some years back . However it is said that Danish bee keepers used ths tool since 40 years and were under the impression having to close the hive in winter with the removable bottom board beneath the screen. Until someone forgot to close one colony in the fall and come spring all was well and no harm was done to the colony . As a matter of fact , specially in margin ares it is understood to provide enough ventilation to prevent condensation beneath the inner cover to drip onto the bee cluster to make icycles of them if the temperature drops below freezing . (Which ,by the way occured in the Eastern townships )
    Having said all that , I just got word yesterday from a beekeeper which also tries anything new and sticks his nose out . It turns out that the fully "Styrofoam " hive body has proven itself very beneficial to his beekeeping not only in cluster survival but also in development of the colony and its productivity . This foam thing also features open bottom boards .
    Another little item to mention .: Today I saw the success in introducing Plastic COMB ( Not just foundation) . The bees made a wonderful job of working the comb. There is another forum about his subject here somewhere .
    Happy opeen Sbb's
    JDF

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Jonquière, Quebec (ABOVE 48th parallel North!!)
    Posts
    150
    Hi Juandefuca,

    I also leave in the province of Quebec, but further north than M Choiniere. We have preety rough and long winter around here. For instance, last winter was REALLY long and cold. January and Febuary were almost always below -20, -25 Celcius during daytime, and -30 in the night. I would then be worried to leave my SBB open, fearing that cold air could enter more in the hive.

    Clustered bees need to eat honey to keep themselves around 25 Celcius everytime, and so when winters are real long and cold, I presume they must consume much more than during milder ones. So even if coldness will not kill the clustered bees, my fear is that with an open SBB they would eat more on their honey reserve and starve late winter or early spring as brood rearing begins.

    But maybe I am wrong fearing it too, I just never heard anybody in our part of the country who tried it. With only 4 hives, I won't be the first

    Hugo

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    St-Faustin-Lac Carre, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    20

    Cool

    Please re-read my intervention. I did not mentioned anything in relation with bees, winter conditions, bees survival etc...

    This also has no relation with my personal location or experience... and I made no link with it. So far nobody reacted on the topic... but just aside of it.

    I just simply and only mentioned that lower temperatures (and this can be as slight as 2 C) will accelarate reproduction of varroas. Period.

    It has been demonstrated in many countries with various weather conditions (between and in the same country as Switzerland) that even little variations into the hive have an effect on varroas reproduction. Lower inside temperature helps the varroas, higher reduce their rate of reproduction. This is nearly applicable all over the world as nights are generally colder than days... Period again.

    This WAS NOT an issue when varroas was inexistent but it is now an important issue. The temperature should be kept constant into the hive and the best way to do it is to let it run by the bees themselves. The best way to help them do the job is to eleminate the "risk factor" of an open bottom board by closing it. Period. That was my posting. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    PS As I previously mentionned it has also been also demonstrated that higher temperatures are NOT favourable to varroas BUT there is no known way to convince the bees to stop ventilating the hive and let its temperature climb! So this doesn't work practically speaking with the varroas.

    Painting supers with black paint etc... has been tried and do not really work also but I must say that "darker" hives are preferable for "colder" countries. This help the bees a litlle keeping the hive at their own desired temperature.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Studies have shown that leaving the bottom open greatly improves brood production and honey production. The improved ventilation seems to be conducive to both. As far as I can find out most studies on SBB and Varroa were done with them open and they do reduce Varroa populations. Most probably because they fall. Of course if you managed to increase the temperature in the hive even a few degrees the combs would collapse and honey would be everywhere. Having it open does not change the temperature of the brood nest. The bees regulate that. It only improves the ventilation and the bees ABILITY to control the temperature to have it open. The issue of climate was brought up because it may be that when the weather is cold enough that it interferes with this ability, but all the research so far is that it helps.

    I have never left them open over winter and am considering whether or not to leave one open to see what happens. We can get really cold weather for weeks sometimes (-10 F is common). And sometimes we have quite mild winters where it never gets below zero F.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Jonquière, Quebec (ABOVE 48th parallel North!!)
    Posts
    150

    Post

    A downside of elevate temperature in hives is that bees use water to cool the hive at the optimal temp (35-36 Celcius). So when it is hotter than that, more and more bees collect water, so less nectar is foraged, and water-collecting bees consume stored honey to perform their task. So it might decrease productivity. But dealing with varroa (as with other diseases) means having to make choices between hive health and productivity...

    Hugo

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA and Alcala, Spain
    Posts
    553

    Post

    Hello folks.
    I am beginning to think that contributors to this forum DO NOT READ my contributions. I keep saying that as in animal husbandry, contentend cows, equate to contented honey bees. One definitely must strive to have healthy honey bees. Disease necessarily induce stress to honey bees hence REDUCING/DIMINISHING their work output. The three major diseases of honey bees: American
    Foul Brood, Varroasis, and Small Hive Beetles , all three of them, in addition to stress, result in diminished brood, the most important factor for increased production.
    Do those things that one must to eliminate these three disease conditions, and the bees will return your investments many fold.
    Theorizing about these three diseases will not cut the pie. One term to consider here strongly: integrated pest management: Medication, screened bottom boards, traps,
    small cell, hygienic behavior, queen selection, and good housekeeping.
    And for those who like debates: How do I know this? Because I have been a beekeeper for 65 years, a practicing veterinary doctor for 41 years, and because I really care about honey bees and their importance for the survival of humanity.
    Best regards.
    Dr. Rodriguez

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Jonquière, Quebec (ABOVE 48th parallel North!!)
    Posts
    150

    Arrow

    Dr Rodriguez,

    I, too, am a veterinary doctor, and I have been practicing in Farm animals, and I am keeping bees too. So I agree with you that keeping bees shares a lot of "important line of conduct" in managing diseases with other kind of "herd keeping". But for a lot of us beekeepers, as for vets and other scientificly curious people, we are always seeking new ways to understand and deal with situations.

    I think that all your devoted work in research for treating bees with FGMO is a big step forward for the beekeepers who wish to use alternate treatments other than chemicals. But you have to understand that we all have questions, it is normal for everyone to try to understand more what is going on in our hives, as you do, and try to find new ways to deal with diseases, as you did when you first began to work with FGMO as a mean to control varroa. And we all have different realties associated with the part of the world we live in, different climates, so we may have different views on things like managing our hives for wintering for instance, and the effect it can have on varroa population.

    I respect your work, and matter of fact, intend to treat my hives with FGMO next summer.

    Best regards,

    Hugo Tremblay, dmv
    Alma, Quebec

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    St-Faustin-Lac Carre, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    20

    Post

    "As far as I can find out most studies on SBB and Varroa were done with them open and they do reduce Varroa populations. Most probably because they fall."

    SBB do reduce varroas not because they make varroas fall or kill them but because varroas, once they have fallen... or died (because of FGMO ...), can not climb back anymore on the bees. This seems to be their most important effects on varroas.

    Studies were made at the beginning on opened SBB. Results were unequal and showed a lot of variations for unknowned reasons until the hypothesis of an effect on inside hive temperature could result of the added ventilation. At that time it was well knowned that varroas would better develop at a slightly lower temperature.

    It was then demonstrated that opened SBB were lowering the inside temperature and so probably favouring the developpement of varroas. This is the reason for the prevailing recommandation that opened SBB be replaced with clossed SBB. It was further found that the spacing between the floor and the screen was critical and recommended that it should be kept at a minimum of 4 cm or 1 5/8".

    I do not intend to deny or debate the good effects of ventilation on productivity of the bees, the importance of ventilation on the winterization of bees etc... All those are good and interesting considerations most of them already well knowned by most of us. This was not not the purpose of my thread. I only wished to mention again what I thought was already well knowned and accepted. It doesn't seem so.

    No doubt also that uncomparable results following FGMO applications could also result of uncomparable SBB types. This is surely as important or decisive as a non "standard" application of FGMO...

    Those who have "faith" on opened SBB can do whatever they wish...



    ------------------
    Normand Choiniere
    Mont-Tremblant region, Quebec, Canada.
    http://consultus.qc.ca/valmiel

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    >I only wished to mention again what I thought was already well knowned and accepted. It doesn't seem so.

    I think it is neither well know nor accepted. I am not certain what I believe on leaving them open, because I have never tried it in cold weather, but it seems that the "accepted" method seems to be to leave them open all the time.

    Since all of the SBBs that I have seen have only a 3/4" gap when the bottom is in place, I would say that having them open is much more effective.

    I did not mean to imply that the SBB causes a mite fall, as you say, it just lets them fall to where they can't get back up.

    FGMO fog, on the other hand, does cause more of them to fall and having a SBB is helpful when using the FGMO.


    [This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited August 20, 2003).]

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    West Harrison, NY, USA
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    261

    Post

    Normand,

    could you please give me/us the reference where to find the research showing the advantages of a closed (at >= 4cm) screened bottom board?

    I find this topic VERY interesting. However, because it is unrelated to FGMO effects, perhaps we should transfer it to the section Diseases to avoid misunderstandings such as the one Dr. Rodriguez's reply suggest.

    Thanks

    Jorge

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Sequim / Wa / USA
    Posts
    175

    Post


    Hugo of St Joseph D'Alma
    Greetings
    I can very well understand your concern and personally I would IN YOUR Climate and the variances therof be reluctant to keep it open all the way . Here again we cannot make general statements because of our different conditions . One is obliged to test and gather local application knowlege .
    What applies to me here in the Pacific North west is not the same as in Arizona or Northern Manitoba , etc . Your region is certainly in some respects equal to the conditions in Labrador , depending on the year . What would concern me most in any situation that the bees are very reluctant to move from the cluster to food combs . they can starve to death amids plenty as it frequently happend to me irrespective of open or closed bottom boards . The one remedy for this is a very strong colony .
    However , I mentioned it today at another posting that the "styrofoam" brood boxes as they are now on the market and used in Sweden are indeed very conducive to keep bees . We have to find the compromise between insulation , ventilation and the prevention of dew points , specifically in those regions such as yours.
    Just to mention the varieties of conditions aside of what I just mentioned . We lost colonies due to the explosion of Yellow Jackets for the last 3 years .
    There was simply not enough rain to play the balancing act . Open or closed Sbb's and varroa had no play in this scenario . We just have to learn and find ways to tackle the problem . Strong colonies is here the main defense.
    Well , always some thing array in beekeeping .
    I lived in Naudville for about 3 years .
    Involved in Chute du Diable & Chute de la Savanne , Isle Maligne .
    Best wishes
    JDF

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