Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 39 of 39
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
    Posts
    2,303

    Post

    BjornBee,I see your point.Others have done research on fgmo,I hear references from time to time,so why is it so hard to find?You would think they would make the results available if they went to the trouble to test it in the first place.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany
    Posts
    829

    Post

    Hello Dr. Rodriguez and other beekeepers

    Thanks for your answers and I wish the Oxalic Acid producer would send me some money. I think those companies don’t even know that beekeepers using the acid to treat honeybees.
    How much money can you make on a crystal that cost 10. – Euro / 9. - US per kg and is good for almost 500 treatments? I think this is one of the reasons why nobody is interested to go for a registration with all the difficulties and costs.
    For an example, would you go and register vinegar as a window cleaner if the government would demand this? After the registration you must raise the price to get your money back with an result, no housewife would by it from you. Same with oxalic acid, it is a good wood cleaner and you can also bleach the wax. The crystals are available here in hardware stores and all beekeeping suppliers sell it. Why should we pay double or even more to someone who registers the acid???

    The first tests are made from several beekeeping institutes since the Varroa arrived in Germany.
    Dr. if you’re interested I will give you the addresses from some of at least 6 institutes here in Germany.
    Search the Internet and you will find lots of countries where the acid is in use against the Varroa. Some governments even recommend the treatments with OA (Scotland, New Zealand, Denmark, Finland and many more) because of the low costs for the beekeepers and the very good results.
    I would say, beekeepers in almost all countries from the eastern part of Europe and Russia treating their bees with OA.
    The breakthrough was when beekeepers find out, the vaporized oxalic acid is the saves for the honeybees and the most effective treatment against the Varroa. Official test are made in this direction.
    I give you one of the sites so you can see how they made the tests and what the result is http://www.mellifera.de/engl2.htm
    I’m not using the electric oxalic acid vaporizer like in the tests because of the heat in the colonies. It might work during the wintertime but not in late summer or fall when colonies are strong and not in a cluster. The heat kills lots of bees before they can escape. I heat my vaporizer outside the colonies and blow the vapor in the hive with same good results but no casualties.
    Dr. I wonder why I can’t find such test from your recommended treatment on the Internet after all the years you work with FGMO?

    Dr. I don’t like to devaluate your work in the fight against the Varroa but it would be nice to here some different independent statements.
    By the way, if you know someone who owns an oxalic acid enterprise you can give me the name and address. Maybe I have luck and make some money I can share with you.


  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA and Alcala, Spain
    Posts
    553

    Post

    Hello folks.
    I see that this topic is getting out of context.
    I do not see the reason why Axman is so intent in debating against FGMO if he has no other reason than comparing/contrasting the merits of oxalic acid vs FGMO. If he believes in oxalic acid as I do in FGMO, fine. What does anyone have to gain by demeaning the merits of either product unless there is a biased reason?
    On to the basics of FGMO research.
    I have performed FGMO research (and I believe my credentials will compare favorably with those of many performing honey bee research) for 9 years at my own expense for the benefit of beekeeping large and small. I am convinced that FGMO has merits as an alternative method of treatment for honey bee parasites as demonstrated in field trials and anecdotic reports from all around the wolrd.
    I do not know why research institutions do not engage in performing FGMO research and if there is anyone who does why they do not publish their results, positive or negative. I see no point in debating the merits of FGMO on this forum or any other forum. My time is much to valuable to engage in arguments that will not foster the wellfare of our common object: honey bees.
    I will continue in search of ways and means that will benefit honey bees, beekeeping and humanity in general. That has been my goal from day one and will continue to be.
    In closing, I would like to remind those that have followed the progress of FGMO, that I have always insisted that I continue to look for ways to make FGMO cost-effective and less labor intensive for the benefit of commercial beekeepers. During the past years, I have noticed that most complaints about the efficacy of FGMO comes from commercial beekeepers because present day FGMO procedures "takes too much of their time and it is too much labor intensive." Yet, I have not heard of one single commercial beekeeping enterprise, even though there are very large commercial enterprizes in beekeeping, that would certeinly benefit from it, that have offered to fund FGMO research.
    Here is my plea once more. Don't kill the messengers, be they for whatever procedure that works. Let's concentrate in finding ways that will protect our honey bees!
    Best regards.
    Dr. Rodriguez

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Pomfret, MD, USA
    Posts
    242

    Post

    Folks,
    First off, I want to thank everyone for reading and responding to my initial post. I am amazed at the interest my simple request has generated. Unfortunately, I have to come to the conclusion that my questions regarding independant verification of FGMO can't be answered here. That does not mean I am saying I believe FGMO does not work. Quite frankly, I don't know one way or the other. As I have said, I am a complete newbie.
    I have decided that I will inquire directly with the Beltsville Bee Lab and ask the same questions I asked in my initial post, plus one more:
    1. Has research on FGMO been done?
    2. If so, what are the results?
    3. If not, why?
    4. What course of treatment does Beltsville currently recommend for a hobbyist?

    I appreciate the responses of Dr. Rodriguez and the dedication he clearly has to his work. His caring for the condition of honeybees is commendable.

    Clearly I have stirred up some ill will, and this was not my intention. However, I do disagree with him on one point: a forum, in my opinion, can be an excellent place to discuss the merits of a given subject as long as the postings remain cordial, are intelligently presented with well-informed assertions, and remain relevant to the topic.

    I will not be posting the responses to my inquiries with the Beltsville lab to this forum. Dr. Rodriguez is the moderator of this forum and therefore I believe his desire not to engage in this debate here should be respected. Instead, I will post any additional information I receive on this matter to the "Diseases and Pests" forum.

    Thanks again,
    Kai A. Richardson
    aka Wish the Cuttlefish

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
    Posts
    2,303

    Post

    You bring up a good point about this forum,and one that I had reached myself.The debate about the effectiveness or lack thereof and comparisons to other treatments must be carried on, but NOT here.So out of respect to Dr.R. ,I too will not post any negative comments here anymore,as this forum is Dr. R's.See you on the disease and pests forum!
    ----Mike

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA and Alcala, Spain
    Posts
    553

    Post

    Thanks fellows.
    I appreciate your kind words and concerns.
    I wish to clarify that I do not own this forum. Like you, I post here.
    I agree on another aspect. This forum is for FGMO. As I have stated before, unfortunately, I am far too busy to engazge in debates.
    I would like to suggest to those of you who may wish to debate beekeeping issues to visit Bee-L.
    Your wishes may certainily be granted there.
    My very best regards to all.
    Dr. Rodriguez

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Sequim / Wa / USA
    Posts
    175

    Post

    Greetings to all of you !
    I have been "reading ' almost all of page 2 of the subject here . The concerns are valid and the contributions vary in importance to the subject . Since the Varroa incident is a hot subject and no silverbullet has hereto come forth , it is understandable for different opinions to surface .
    I have neither seen anything anywhere pointing to so called research related to FGMO other than what Dr R has published . It has also puzzled me since my involvement with FGMO that no other source has come forth with anything but meaningless comments such as : "it does not work ". This kind of statement is absolutely worthless to me and I give to this kind of comment no attention .
    Another aspect is also of interest as it relates to the ENGLISH language and its use in a rather limited arena . Maybe one should respect other folks also around the globe which MAY have done this reseasrch you are looking for and are not inclined to debate such matters in English !!. So much for that .
    Since we have no other means to communicate and lack the so called "Scientific " verification from other sources we are stuck with our own observations of an anecdotal "value". But who is to say that our observations are of a lesser value than anyone elses . As far as research goes there is the "Primadonna " sydrome present which presents itself as a handicap also . Politics have the tendency to creep into a picture much to anyones regret .
    Such is life
    I have posted repeatedly my observation of anedotal value in this forum but have no time nor interest to play the same tune like worn out 76 record .
    I have stated that Varroa is and will be present until it resolves itself or the bees can take care of it as they do in Asia from where they came .
    In the meantime we have to make do with what we have and ONE of the tools is FGMO . It is to me the most benign application I have used and are aware of . There may be others NOW , but I shall stick with FGMO because it has not killed the bees , nor did it contaminate the product but kept the Varroa as well as the tracheal mite in check .
    Yes ,I lost colonies . Not to mites ,but not managing correctly ( Handicapped time wise ) that is : starving , Mice , yellow Jackets. Shrews , Queen loss and laying workers .
    I have never seen phoretic varroa on my bees and the drone brood at the late check revealed ONE varroa where I found the mite. But Not in all drone cells . That is strange in itself since most mites bear more young in one cell. I am not even sure that the mites were NOT the old mother and had not propagated offspring . Particularly in one colony this phenomenon occurs with a daily drop of 10 to 50 in 24 hours . The colony however does not show any ill effect . I do not know what to make out of this .
    Furthermore I have no problems with brood ailments other than in one colony the incident of chalkbrood and it is most likely the location as a culprit .I requeened that one and have to check on the subject shortly.
    The usage of FGMO in my apiary began in late dec 1999 and on a prophylactic basis since Jan 2000 with a minimum of 2 weeks interval of fogging and cords when depleted .
    May I be permitted to explain a notion here . The emulsion has the tendency to separate the honey from the other ingrediences . since the distribution within the cords are rather uniform the "separation " is also widely distributed with the cords . The bees therefore like this honey component and surely "Go" for it , hereby having to "Dig " for it and thus get the other ingredients onto their bodies to do what it suppose to do .
    I have made tests with the effect of the emulsion as well as the oil on the mite and the mite perished almost instantaniously specifically when exposed to the oil . Trouble is , I have not enough or no mites to play with other than the live drop in this one colony out of 20. So, I have not reason NOT to continue with the application of FGMO and take my hat off to DR Pedro Rodriguez to maintain his cool inspite of years of adverse comments and attempts to sabotage his work .
    The jury on most Varroa treatments is still out because nothing has been forthcoming to make a dent in the bucket .
    Best wishes to all and happy beeing !
    JDF

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Sequim / Wa / USA
    Posts
    175

    Post

    correction to one statement in the foregoing post : The Fog application has a maximum timespan of two weeks . More often it is applied in one week intervals , dpending on my personal doings of daily living.
    happy beeing
    JDF

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Brasstown, NC , USA
    Posts
    31

    Angry

    Hey People
    I have been absent from the forum for some time and the reason was the same as it is going to be this time.A simple inquiry evolves into a mud slinging affair with no knowlege being gained. The gentleman using the acid sounds very much like the last clown who was jumping all over FGMO.See you all in a couple of months when this path of destruction might be over. I am not siding with Dr. R. or anyone else. I simply think we should all be working for a common goal and not searching for a power base to shout from.
    Because of my limited knowlege I need to know what SHB is Dr. R.

    See you later

    Mike Garitta

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,142

    Post

    SHB=Small Hive Beetle=Major Pest

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Sequim / Wa / USA
    Posts
    175

    Post

    Anecdotal report
    However i am not qualified to speak because I lack the credentials of whatever facilities and time to construct statistics which requires a course at a learned institution . Of course , then again anyone can concoct statistics without the above . Sometimes I made extra income with that . ( Please keep quiet about this )
    Anyway, my pure ingnorance of testing with the alcohol / water method revealed at the last random check a maximum of 5 % and the other 5 samples zero % . Naturally my unscientific method as proposed by Dr so and so in respect to the above treatment is questionable since I are/is unable to count properly . Not to talk using division manipulation and grammar.I would love to experiment with the mites but sorry I cannot find any and the few dead ones are hard to fiddle with . It is too bad .I use only FGMO since Dec 1999 and it is very disappointinmg that I still find only a few . I also try to spot any in drone cells and was diappointed not to find any there . In conclusion I find myslf in the position to stop the FGMO treatment to increase the mite population , giving me the opportunity to excercise in further anecdotal events .
    yours very sad
    JDF
    Meantime the other odd hive with the mite drop I mentioned before is now in production somewhere and I am not able to monitor daily . It is producing pollen somewhere else aside honey.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Bradenton, FL, and Davenport, IA, USA
    Posts
    930

    Post

    Dr.
    Hi, I am curious as to how you decided to research the effectiveness of FGMO in the use of mite control. What was the original source of this idea.

    Just curious really, I have been away from "modern beekeeping" for a while and there are LOTS of new ideas.

    ------------------
    --
    Scot Mc Pherson
    "Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,142

    Post

    According to what Dr. Rodriguez, who is a veterinarian, has said elsewhere, it’s a treatment he has used for mites in large mammals and he tried it on the mites on the bees figuring that if it worked on ear mites and other mites on mammals, then it might work on the mites on the bees. I think the question really wasn’t would the FGMO kill the mites, but would it harm the bees and what was the best way to administer it.

    The Dr. can feel free to elaborate on this if he wishes.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA and Alcala, Spain
    Posts
    553

    Post

    Hello folks.
    Mac. Thank you for your question. My idea was the result of professional veterinary knowledge and Divine guidance.
    Thank you Mike for your reply to Mac.
    Your reply is okay but it is a bit more extensive than what you have explained.
    Here again, I urge all visitors to beesource.com to read the archives in order to obtain "the whole story" as Paul Harvey would say. It is too time consuming for me to reapeat time and again to new commers.
    Page two.
    My most recent research results will soon be published. Guaranteed to be pleasing.
    Have a wonderful pleasant summer in the company of your loved ones and Godly guidance.
    Dr. Rodriguez

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Bradenton, FL, and Davenport, IA, USA
    Posts
    930

    Post

    Dr and mike. Thanx for the replies.

    I understnad what you are saying about just applying a science already used elsewhere in animal care. My question really stems from the beginning of the beginning of using mineral oil to treat mites.

    And if it works for mites, I wonder if it would be good for flees ?!? Bath a dog in fgmo, let him stand for 10 minutes or so to let the oil enter the trachea of the mites, and then wash the oil off of the dog. Or would FGMO not be viscous enough?

    I know its not strictly beekeeping, but the question is valid in the sense that I am wondering where did FGMO treatment historically start from the beginning of time.

    ------------------
    --
    Scot Mc Pherson
    "Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me

    [This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited August 01, 2003).]

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,142

    Post

    I don't know about fleas but it works on lice. It doesn't wash off as easily as vegatable oil though, and I'd recommend olive oil for lice.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA and Alcala, Spain
    Posts
    553

    Post

    Hello folks.
    To Scot Mac and other interested parties.
    Yes, I have reported time and again that mineral oil has and is being used for the treatment of lice, ticks, fleas and other body parasites of humans and animals.
    Best regards.
    Dr. Rodriguez

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA and Alcala, Spain
    Posts
    553

    Post

    Hello folkss.
    I am not disagreeing with my good colleague Mike Bush.
    However,
    1). olive oil is far more expensive than FGMO.
    2). olive oil is a a valuable food and it seems to me like a shame to waste valuable foods when there are other proven alternativs.
    3). Olive oil has an odor that permeates
    the environment. It is fine for the salad but doubtful for the work environment.
    I know of several colleagues who have/are using the fogger to fog their livestock using FGMO and the Burgess fogger.
    Just a thought.
    Best regards.
    Dr. Rodriguez

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,142

    Post

    I am NOT recomending Olive oil for bees. I'm recomending it for head lice. I'm saying FGMO would work for head lice except that it is difficult to wash out. Olive oil would probably work in the emoulsion for the bee mites, but you have to worry about it going racid and all the other issues that the Dr. brings up.

    The principle is the same.

    I find it interesting how many things that are being tried on the mites and look promising that are in some way an oil or distributed in an oil and often it is FGMO.

    I read one recently about a man who was using fish oil on shop towels and the article was actualy making fun of the concept, but my guess is that it works. I wouldn't want to eat his honey, however.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads