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  1. #1
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    Have there been any formal scientific studies published on FGMO by universities, Beltsville, etc., independent of Dr. Rodriguez, which demonstrate the effectiveness of FGMO? If there are none, why? If there are some, does anyone have the links?

    Thanks,
    Wish the Cuttlefish



  2. #2
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    Helo folks.
    What is meant by formal? Are we looking for crdibility here"
    Must research be performed at universities?
    There have been many contributions to humankind by independent researchers.
    Unfortunately, research costs money and most monies for research are granted to universities, but that should not mean that only university-based research is credilbe.
    Best regards.
    Dr. Rodriguez

  3. #3
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    What I guess I am looking for is any research paper, submitted for peer review and published in a well regarded scientific journal (Science, Nature, American Bee Journal even!) which successfully replicates and validates your findings in regards to the efficacy of FGMO. The epistemological ideas of Karl Popper, etc, not withstanding, this is still the modus operandi in the scientific community for examining and verifying scientific claims.

    I myself do not have hives, and I have not tried it. I am looking to start and I am interested in reading any and all research regarding Varroa mite control. Your techniques, which may have much anecdotal evidence and your own research to support them, are nonetheless controversial. Credible, independent research would go a long way towards persuading people, including myself, that your techniques are the way to go.

    As for my mentioning of universities and the federal research station in Beltsville, MD, I only mention these as examples. You are certainly correct, there are independent researchers, and I would welcome those as well. However, as you suggest, the organizations I mentioned generally are able to apply more funds and resources to a given scientific issue. It seems to me that claims regarding the efficacy of FGMO would warrant extensive research by these groups, especially considering the severity of the Varroa mite problem and the impact it has had and continues to have on beekeepers and US agriculture in general.

    With regards,
    Wish the Cuttlefish

  4. #4
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    Feb 2002
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    Virginia Beach, VA and Alcala, Spain
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    Cutlefish.
    Your point is well taken. Maybe your queries will start a trend from which you may get answers to some of your questions.
    I for one, am far too busy to engage in philosophical dialogues.
    If you are interested in useful contributions to beekeeping, please write to my private e-mail address with a real name and a real e-mail address and I will be very glad to assist you.
    Best regards.
    Dr. Rodriguez

  5. #5
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    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    I have noticed in the case of alternative treatments such as FGMO and small cell that most of the research I find done by others does not bother to try to duplicate the methods or concepts of the original and because of this fail. I don't understand why the researchers don't bother to follow the methods that they are supposedly testing. I get the feeling that down deep, they are actually trying to disprove it and that's why they didn't bother to try to follow the same methods. In reality they should be trying to simply follow the method and see if the results are the same or not without any expectations.

    The things that are passed off as scientific research are shocking.

    On rare occasions these researchers actually do follow the original protocol and it does work.

    As pointed out by Dr. Rodriguez in other posts, many other alternative treatments probably work because they have FGMO or some other oil as the base for the treatment.

  6. #6
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    Jun 2003
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    Pomfret, MD, USA
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    My name is Kai A. Richardson, I live in Pomfret MD, and my email address is wishthecuttlefish@yahoo.com.

    Michael Bush has said that on the rare occasions when researchers have followed protocols they have had success. Have their results been published? If so, where? If not, why?

    I would be surprised if others on this forum would not also be interested in reading such research, which is why I submitted my original post. Such information would be extremely helpful to those of us who are new to beekeeping and are facing the daunting task of examining all of the various Varroa mite control methods. The efforts in this area made by independent researchers such as Dr. Rodriguez are certainly appreciated since they save time and money for those of us without the resources or expertise to engage in such research. I have read Dr. Rodriguez's article in American Bee Journal but I have been having no success in finding research which replicates his results.

    Sincerely,
    Kai

  7. #7
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    Nov 2002
    Location
    Sapulpa,OK USA
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    My last treatment with Apistan was last fall. I have since then tried to follow the FGMO as prescribed by the Dr. and I have seen very little sign of varroa in my hives and only then earlier in the year when I first started. I even have uncapped whole frames of drone cells to see if I could find varroa and I have seen very little. I love using the fogger instead of my smoker (may not work with other hive nor is this included as part of the Dr. recomendations) I just found that it works like the smoker for me. It is neat to watch the bees go after new cords - right away they will start tugging and pulling to get it out of they hive.

  8. #8
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    Feb 2003
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    lewisberry, Pa, usa
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    Question for Dr. Rodriquez,

    In Pa, the state inspection program recently published the results of a mite test. Of 123 hives tested (from different apiaries),15 had mites. All with levels below 5 mites per sample. Samples taken via sugar roll test. These hives were not using FGMO or any other medications at this time. Spring/summer levels seem to be manageable.

    My question has to do with the use of FGMO on a continual basis. Is it needed on a weekly/monthly basis if no test indicates a problem?

    Has it been tested using it only for fall time application?

    Would timely application in the fall be effective?

    I ask since spring buildup and winter weather would not be conducive to application for possibly 3-5 months period. And yet at other times of the year it seems a regimented schedule must be followed for success.

    Thank-you for your input.

  9. #9
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    Feb 2002
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    Hello folks.
    I am plased to see reports of low mite incidence. Perhaps we are reaching the point where honey bees are becoming more resistant to mites. I would be skeptical of low mite counts. I would advise to keep your guard up. Mite infestations do flare up when one least expect them.

    Regarding your question:
    Tests have demonstrated that the FGMO emulsion-soaked cords do protect colonies during Winter and early Spring.

    Thank you Kai for posting your Name and e-mail address. I sincerelly wish that institutions with research capabilities would perform genuine duplication trials. I honestly think this will never happen because there is no money in FGMO. No one is going to fund it. At least that has been my experience so far.
    Best regards.
    Dr. Rodriguez

  10. #10
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    May 2003
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    michigan
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    Hi BjornBee

    I try to keep a close watch on mite levels too. This time of year I generally dont see a huge level but there are a few colonies that break that exception. I saw one in the last couple of days that is a doomed with tattered wings and little varroa hitch hiking on the bees. Screened bottom boards dont seem to be showing much either. However, I typically see the mites really increase in late August or so.

    I think you and I have the same questions about treatment with FGMO......when to start, time interval to space treatments and how many overall times are needed/how long to continue treatments.

    The following was my experience when the colonies were fogged in the fall (September) with only two applications....60% loss of colonies. Don't take this to mean that I think FGMO is worthless.......I havent given up on FGMO and am going to try the exact same method again this fall and see what happens......I suspect that the loss will be substantially less just due to the bees I have now versus when I tried last time and that a quick fogging could allow me to maintain an acceptable winter loss. I keep hoping for a method to use FGMO that will work for me....it simply isnt possible to fog on a constant basis.


  11. #11
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    Feb 2003
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    When I hear about losses of 60% and sometimes more, I go crazy thinking there has got to be more to the story. I am not a wizard, but have never experienced anything close to this level and I did not treat with anything last year.

    I wish there would be a checklist for beekeepers to fill out when a hive was lost. Something like -When was the queen last replaced? - Date of last check on brood in the fall - Mite count on last check - Starvation signs vs. desease signs - etc.

    My question is from a pure labor/time angle. If your bees are showing low numbers through spring and summer, and knowing the mites increase rapidly in late fall, then would timely application be the best way to go?

    I hear about beekeepers using FGMO on newly installed packages with full sheets of foundation. Is this needed? Other than the fact that they are new and possibly making mistakes, losing new hives with no/little drone cells is hard to do. Does fogging all year long make sense other than the fact you should go into fall with lower levels as compared to not using FGMO at all?

    I have always believed that the grease patties helped, which I do use. And FGMO makes sense to me. I just can't see carrying the fogger all year long and how hives can be completly lost on a small deviation or temporary lapse in application.

    I think I will follow the FGMO procedure as outlined and use on half my bees/apiaries. The other half with something else perhaps strips and see what the outcomes are.

    Thanks wineman,
    And I agree that fogging would be hard to do on a constant basis. This is also why most big university/Ag Dept. concentrate on other areas of research. I think they are trying to find a one time application on a yearly basis. They are more in line with commercial application. Of course politics, money, egos, and other things I'm sure come into play. My opinion of course.

  12. #12
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    Jul 2000
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    Post

    I had very similar losses to Wineman last season-over 50%, fogging every 2 weeks starting in spring through early August and using emulsion mop cords,though the cords werent replaced regularly(try lifting hundreds of supers to do that)By August it was apparent that there were huge varroa loads and other measures were taken to save the hives.Although some losses were due to queen failure the vast majority died from virus killed brood(PMS-my wife loves that one)
    So make of it what you will,I am NOT using mineral oil this year.

  13. #13
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    Feb 2002
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    Sorry folks if I sound repetitive.
    Sounds to me like the old complaints, yet we all end up at the same conclusion.
    I have varroa-free hives, and my colleagues very low mite counts. However, all of us follow a strict protocol. I have truthfully published my findings and procedure for use of FGMO. Please read the published material and you will notice among other details that the best results have been obtained when fogging and the cords are used together. Also that in the absence of emulsion-soaked cords (due to excess labor) fogging is required once a week for optimum results.
    I also notice that there might be other reasons for hive losses beyond FGMO. I have stated many times that FGMO is an alternative treament and not a "silver bullet." I receive thousand of anecdotes from people who use FGMO. Some fail, but the majority of users claim to be successful with it. Remarkably, according to their testimonies,those who succed are those who follow strict protocol instructions.
    This year I have been working with a variation to the FGMO formula to include the SHB. As I posted on this forum, results are very encouraging and will soon be published.
    Please "do not kill the messenger." Please bear with me.
    Best regards.
    Dr. Rodriguez

  14. #14
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    May 2003
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    michigan
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    Hi Everyone

    Think I probably raised more questions than anything with my last post. Sure I will forget something but I will try to answer some of your questions. If not let me know.

    I believe taking care of bees has three parts these days.

    (1) Following good practices and trying to keep the best conditions for the bees.
    (2) Genetics
    (3) Mite control with the method or combination that works best for you whether its chemicals, FGMO, screened boards, small cells.

    Number one can include alot but I think young queens is a good start. Number two is full of twists and turns but I would suggest most folks try to simply find something that works in their operation given their environment/location.

    I try to rasie a few queens and add some SMR, Russian etc into the bees. I dont treat any colonies that are used for breeders, for drones or those being tested for future use as either but I do treat general production colonies. Which takes us to number 3.

    Generally, production colonies have queens that are from 3 months old upto 2 years old heading into winter. Regarding diseases, generally dont see much chalk brood and occassionally see AFB in a percentage of colonies. Vast majority of the colonies are more than capable of handling it on their own but I typically destroy frames with it so that I don't accidentally use it to make a nuc or something. Tracheal mites are my big issue. I have stopped grease patties due to concerns with SHB. The core basis of my bees has been american buckfast and new world carniolan so I have a fair amount of resistance but you can lose it very quickly if you dont watch out. Starvation typically is not an issue. Comes into play in three scenarios.....late season swarming, late season nucs that barely make it into a single and bees that simply have too much italian in them.

    I have my own protocol of testing for mites and treating that works for me but I am always looking for something new.

    My first test was actually before fogging. It was when essential oils were being talked about. We would spray vegetable oil mixed with essential oils across the top bars and leave the soaked shop towels in the top. In these experiments I usually only jeapordize about 25 colonies max but I can compare them to my treated colonies and my untreated colonies. I believe the shop towels in vegetable/essential oil did a nice job on tracheal mites when the temps were warm enough for the oils to evaporate. I cant say that it did anything for me in the way of helping battle varroa. I hadnt thought about it since I saw the work by Dr. Rodriquez on here recently. It seems to be similar to the cords but I can see how the emulsion would make it much better than just towels soaked in oil. Plus, we only put the towels in for the short time window starting in late August/early September. Back then, didnt do much to monitor for varroa either.

    When the fogging was done, only colonies that were thought to have realistic mite numbers for autumn.....around 25-40 natural fall and at the point that I personally think treatment maybe needed.....were used. No cords were used. I think the mite load was close to the threshold.....too little treatment, too late and 60% loss was the end product.

    I didnt mean to sound as though I was killing the messenger Dr. Rodriquez. I understand that the results could be completely different if I followed the full protocol. I am glad that it works for those who do follow the protocol. However, that just doesnt seem realistic for me given present time constraints. So I am still searching for a way that FGMO might integrate into my operation. This posting has prompted me to consider a test with one group of 10-12 2 year old colonies with cords and 2 foggings both applied in August/September and one group of 10-12 2 year old colonies with either 2 or 3 foggings and no cords applied at the same time. I wouldnt suggest that anyone else try it unless they dont mind what the downside could be.


  15. #15
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    Dec 2002
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    Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany
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    Loggermik there was some similar notes on this forum and it is bad to here beekeepers have so many losses.
    From time to time I connect to the UK -FGMO group and I think lots of beekeepers must have the same problem. Last year they had so many postings, in May /209 and June /182 and this year May /7 and June only 1. That’s absolutely nothing from over hundred members. When I have good or bad results I talk about it, because that’s why we have this forum. Nobody is perfect and we have lots to learn from each other.

    I hoped the new thymol product would help us but I’m really skeptic. Thymol evaporates like formic acid and is fine during the warm weather, but what can we do when we have a late honey flow and must wait with the treatment? As soon as we getting colder weather in fall the evaporation slows down or stopped and thymol is useless. Has anybody an answer?
    With oxalic vapor I can treat the colonies as long as the temperature is a few degree above the freezing point.

    I had a very high mite infection last summer and vaporized oxalic acid several times 7 days apart because of the sealed brood. In late fall and early winter during the brood free time, I treated my colonies again and lost not even one colony.
    At this time of the year I have Oxamite strips in my colonies (1 strip per 4 full brood frames) and mites falling in high numbers. I find out because of the strips there is no early acid vapor necessary like last year and I can wait with the main evaporation treatment till the colony is almost free of brood. Important is always the control with a sticky board.





  16. #16
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    Well I dont want to shoot the messenger either as I always find Dr.R. posts interesting and worth reading.I gave the mineral oil a good try based on the time available for a small commercial operation and under those specific conditions had no luck.I cannot do more than I did,so will have to leave it at that.But I wish the best for those still trying it and hope it works for you.
    I too tried the wintergreen in syrup and grease patties when they were first discussed several years ago,and still believe it has a positive effect on lessening viral damage,but by itself couldnt control varroa in a bad year.
    This season I cant find a varroa mite anywhere!At this point I am just random sampling drone brood forking out around a hundred per hive as I look in brood nests.
    I agree that good management requires good young queens ,good locations(nutrition),disease and pest management and of course swarm prevention and control.All of these have a cost and sometimes just dont work out in spite of our best efforts.As for mites, we are still writing the book on them.They are the worst plague to ever hit bees and our strategies for dealing with them will be constantly changing.

  17. #17
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    Feb 2002
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    Hello folks.
    Thanks Loggermike and Wineman for your kind words.
    Axman. Before I proceed, please allow me to ascertain that I do not have a ax to grind. Anyone can make a statistical presentation on any subject and make it look good depending on his ability to handle mathematics, probability laws and the such upon which so many people make a living. Do you have statistical data on oxalic acid performance and could you please give us the links. I am quite capable of obtaining them on my own but I am in how partial/impartial your sources can be. And by the way, did somoone mention in this forum that you work for or are related to an oxalic acid producer? Just curious.
    Wineman: Ever since I started using FGMO, I have not been able to find one single tracheal mite in the thousands of colonies that I have inspected. FGMO fog does a terrific job with tracheal mites.
    I think that many of your questions regarding the use of thymol will be put to rest soon. More to come.
    Best regards.
    Dr. Rodriguez.

  18. #18
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    This post started with a rather well written request for verification on any level as to FGMO. I have also asked very pointed and direct questions. None of which have really been answered.

    It is amazing to me that after 8 years of research, that not one independent source in the bee world could verify any claims made to date. Is it lack of personal salesmanship, arrogance, ego, or other reason. I am only guessing. Not one ag dept. not one university, not one anything anywhere.

    And now, after Axtmann does not disrespect FGMO, but spoke highly on something he believes. He's ask to provide data to back up his claims. Are not his own experiences enough for him to speak openly about his successes. Seems to me thats what FGMO is without independent varification. If he has an agenda, I suppose its no more than others. Don't we all on some level.

    I wish one day that one lab, university, ag department, one anything, would do this process and report the findings. Of course I'm sure there will be someone to say "the process was flawed, I wasn't involved, they had an agenda, money was involved,............".


  19. #19
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    Jul 2000
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    I have heard that experiments were done with fgmo in various places but other than Dr. R.'s I have had no luck in finding any of it.As for oxalic it has had lots of research done and is pretty easy to track down on the internet.I tend to disregard the insinuations about profit making as there is no money to be made with either mineral oil or oxalic.At the levels they are used in beekeeping,both are dirt cheap.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
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    Virginia Beach, VA and Alcala, Spain
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    Hello folks.
    I am stil interested in knowing if indeed Axman works for or is related to someone who owns an oxalic acid enterprice. No offense was nor is now intended.
    Best regards.
    Dr. Rodriguez

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