Kevin and all
The question of oil and mist particle size has been resolved in previous posts.
The recommended oil IS Either STE "Crystal 70O or PENRECO 35 . The drugstore medication is not neccessarily the correct one .
The micron size is 15 .
STE ships in 1 Gallon containers . There is no commercial interest in either supplier by anyone on this forum as far as I know .
Kevin and all
Comprehensive information is found in "Point of View" when you open the website .
The value of the Burgess fogger happens to be by coincidence the dispersement of 15 miron particles . If I am not mistaken I read this in the description of the fogger by the manufacturer also. Your question about Dr R. and his response . He may overwhelmed with mail and has to put some questions on the backburner since this info can be obtained through the bowels of the topics . One of the problems with forums is the abundance of topics in general . It's not only here but elsewhere . It can be just too much to follow . Other formats may be better but all of them have drawbacks. Do not be too jugemental . The DR has to tend his colonies also and as you well know , that takes time .
I have terrific respect for the creators and moderators of ebsites such as this . I would not be able to handle it since one of my handicaps is the inability to write with more than one finger and my nose , And on top of it ,I am a computer ignoramus . Oftentimes I have problems getting my posts posted .
Dave W wrote:
Where is the post that says "not to use oil from pharmacy"?
The burden of proof is on you. Dr. R. has been very specific in his writings about what oil is to be used. I know he has never advocated using oil from the pharmacy that is used as a laxative. Just because someone else said it can be used doesn't make it correct. This needs to be changed on the outline.
>There is also a KNOWN explosion hazard associated with using the fogger and oils. That is the reason the Burgess Co. will have nothing to do with this. Have your foggers ever spit fire or flamed up for a second? You KNOW they do it-that is what will happen just before the flame goes UP the tube to the combustion chamber and BLOWS your hand off. This has been known and published since 1975.
Where is the hazard that it "blows your hand off" published? I, for one, would like to see it. If you are going to make statements like this, you should back them up.
I don't normally post, but I felt compelled when I read about the exploding fogger. For an explosion to happen you need the explosive substance under pressure or in a confined space prior to ignition. How does the fogger meet these requirements? You pull the trigger and release, then the fog comes out. Pressure will seek the path of least resistance. i.e. out the open nozzle, not back through a closed valve. If you (Kevin L.) are suggesting that the fire can travel back through the fogger and ignite the oil in the tank, that is incorrect. Fire needs oxygen to burn. You can throw a lit match on an open container of gasoline and it won't explode. It will burn, but there isn't enough oxygen for it to explode. The flames are from the volitized gas on the surface. This is the case for the fogger. The flames are from incomplete atomization of the oil. In may case, it happens once in a while when the fogger is heating up. I, for one, would like to see proof of your claims.
As for the "how-to" posted by Dave W., I say thanks. I've been looking for a step-by-step for a while. I come to this board because I'm a new beekeeper and I want information. I read posts here, ask local beekeepers and then do what I think is best. That's the bottom line, do what works for you. I think the bickering is a waste of our time and is frustrating for new people, like myself.
This topic is sure getting passionate. I'm a little sceptical too, but I do have the respect not to throw my wet towel down and smother the beleivers. This is just an alternative idea to treat mites other than with chemical introduction. If you are that strongly against this treatment, then leave this forum becasue it doesent concern you. I still hold an interest in the FGMO treatment and thats why I participate somewhat in its discussion. I still believe it is progressing and might eventially become feasable to the commercial beekeeper.
"Tell them you drilled the fogger to allow MORE liqiid propane into the combustion chamber."
Did I miss something here?
I did not know that we had to modify the fogger. From what I have read, you gas and go. Could some one please point me to the discussion on modifying the fogger.
To clear up one point, Liquid Propane is always at the bottom of the container and the GAS portion is always in the top portion. When using the 14 Oz. bottle on the fogger it is important that the fogger is ALWAYS held LEVEL. If you tip the burner end down then you have a good chance of getting LIQUID to the burner as the bottle that is attached to the fogger is already at an angle. If you use an adaptor and a hose and a larger propane bottle then it makes no difference as you are getting gas from the top of the container [unless you tip the bottle over]. I have worked in the Propane Industry for years, thus I know how propane should be handled. Dale
>John, you have it right-but your explosion will be from liquid propane comming out the end-BURNING back up bringing in oxygen with it and exploding.
Kevin, I was wondering if you actually had any knowledge of any of this, but now I know you don't. I have worked with propane all of my life and I can assure you no burning can be "bringing in oxygen with it" back to the propane. It is the principle on which gas stoves and gas furnaces work that oxygen cannot go back up the pipe and even if flame started to it would run out of oxygen and to even start would require a negative pressure in the tank. What you are describing is the directly opposed to how propane gas works and why it works and why many of us have it in our homes. I was interested in your "explosion" reference because I thought you were describing the oil exploding. This is at least slightly (very slightly) plausible as there is oxygen in the oil chamber. But what you describe defies the laws of physics and is therefore ludicrous.
As to Barry's right to delete your post, he has every right to delete anything he likes. It is his board and it is a free country. Also, he is legally REQUIRED to delete it if it is slanderous and it certainly might be if there is proof that your claims are false. I believe you have now proven beyond any doubt that they are false, unless the laws of physics were changed while I was out.
Also, changing the size of a jet in a gas appliance is a very routine modification. It is done when converting from Natural Gas to Propane and back all the time. It does not make it any more or less dangerous, it merely changes the proportions of gas to air and burns cleaner or not or allows a hotter flame.
Last edited by Barry; 07-10-2011 at 06:47 PM.
Ian is right ,this subject sure gets the heat up for some reason.Personally I get a kick out of it,just because things can get a bit dull around here.I happen to agree with some here who think the research done isnt top notch.But allowances have to be made.It is being done by a retired guy with no funding who is doing the best he can.The rest of the info being circulated on the internet (including mine)is just personal experience NOT proper experiments carried out with controls.Now my own personal experiments convinced me that under MY conditions mineral oil was an ineffective treatment.But that doesnt mean it wont work under YOUR conditions.More work needs to be done to show why it may sometimes work and other times not.I cant afford to use ineffective treatments,but others who can take this risk should continue trying to find out the variables involved.Maybe someone can help Dr.R write a grant application.I think lots of beeekeepers would write in support so we can quit argueing this over the net.
---MIke(just the facts please)
"The burden of proof is on you. Dr. R. has been very specific in his writings about what oil is to be used. I know he has never advocated using oil from the pharmacy that is used as a laxative. Just because someone else said it can be used doesn't make it correct. This needs to be changed on the outline."
Check the Q & A in ABJ (March or April, I can't remember), the Dr. does mention that it is ok to use MO from the pharmacy as long as it isn't the baby oil that contains fragrances.
Hi Rob -
You are right, sorry. I know Pedro has stressed in most postings that oil from commercial distributors is recommended to be safe, but drugstore MO is okay to if not scented.
I am all for freedom of speech, but no one has the freedom to make false accusations about another member on this Bulletin Board. I have deleted Kevin S Lunsford's posts due to the obvious breech of the Rules and Policies outlined when one joins this Bulletin Board. I will not let this BB degrade to the level it has been moving towards. We all are to remain civil with one another and proper decorum is expected. No, I'm not against pointed questions and difference of opinions, but some of the recent exchanges have gone beyond this. I remain interested in keeping the moderation to the absolute minimum on this board, but refusal to cooperate with board moderators or to abide by the rules is grounds for revocation of posting privileges. I hope it doesn't come to this here.
I asked Dr. Rodriguez to be a guest in this board so that we all could gain from his direct input to our questions and discussions. He doesn't have to be here, and frankly, the way some members dialog with him, I'm surprised he puts up with it. It's time for the direction of this thread to turn back around.
Thanks to the majority of the members for making this an enjoyable and informative board.
Loggermike, I appreciate that you shared your failure with FGMO. It is helpful to know how many people are having successes and failures. I have also heard from people who are having great success, but it's good to keep in mind that our circumstances may vary and if we don't do mite counts and pay attention we could lose our bees no matter what methods we use. My friend just lost his hive and he was using Check Mite. I just lost four and was using Apistan. We need to monitor regardless of the method.
Hi all -
I have decided it is time to instill some more guidelines to the BB to help keep the various forum topics on target. There is now a place on the board for all complaints about moderation and censorship to take place.
Everyone is asked to use the forum above for that type of discussion. The way it's been going is too disruptive to the board members and the line of discussions going on in the forums. You are asked to take it there on your own. The moderators will not be responsible for this. If they deem your posting to be disruptive and out of place, they will simply delete it and expect you to post it in the appropraite forum above.
I am open to other suggestions in how best to handle this issue. It's open for discussion in the above forum. Sorry for this disruption in this forum and I apologize to Dr. R. that it took place here.
>.. My friend just lost his hive and he was using Check Mite. I just lost four and was using Apistan. We need to monitor regardless of the method.
Agreed.I hear a lot of bad news coming out of Florida,the coumaphos resistant mites are causing lots of hives to crash.Not unexpected,but the days of quick and easy mite control are ending.That is why I am still going to keep my fogger to experiment with.
Meantime , Happy fogging
Sorry , the rest of the epistle just disappeared as many times before and I have not the guts to go throiugh this whole thing again .
Hi to all
I will not comment on the propane behavior and the relative position as it applies to the fogger . It has been amply substanciated by knowlegable persons here on this forum . The loss of my post essentially repeated that what was quoted in the foregoing posts .
There is however another item which I did not see .
The FGMO treatment came about AFTER the introduction of Varroa Jacobsconi and modified to V Destructor at a later date .
(Different "haplo" Type).
All that came about after 1985 and I am at loss where this 1975 tale gets into the picture . I can only view this viewpoint as very unlikely and are suspicious of its value .
In closing : There are always losses of colonies, otherwise there would be nothing but colonies and no room for humans or anything else. So we have to accept the fact that critters die even with the application of FGMO. That's just the way it is .
Best wishes and happy fogging
Never better said, I haven't the "foggiest" idea of what this 1975 issue has to do with FGMO as an alternative treatment for honey bee mites. I am extremely busy and have not been able to locate the reference to it.
I am very much interested in seen what it is all about. If someone has specific references, URL's, Links, etc., I would appreciate very much if these were pointed out to me. Better yet, if someone could, please, e-mail these to me I would be very grateful since it would save me the time I would spend in searching.
Thank you so very much.
Someone made a claim without any evidence and when asked for a reference it was never produced. Don't waste you time looking for it.