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  1. #1
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    Are there any new England Queen Breeders here? I'm looking to start a New England Bee Breeders Association. So far, I have some very qualified beekeepers on the list.
    Mike

  2. #2
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    Mike, when you get your group together please fill us in on your bylaws and give us a list of breeders so we know where to shop!

  3. #3
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    You bet, Joel. That's the whole idea. I hope the group can become a meeting place for NE breeders to get together to share ideas and stock, and for beekeepers to have a place to get quality northern grown stock. I don't have an agenda here, just a desire to bring producers and purchasers together. Each producer could advertise on the web site. To a point, I would like to see their business be their business, and not the association's. One rule might be stock must be raised from northern stock, maintained and wintered in the north. But then, what do we do with breeder queens raised from outside the area... ie ...VSH(SMR), or Russian stock brought in for breeding purposes.

    We'll, maybe a bit of an agenda. To develop a source for queens produced by open mating in the north, away from contamination with AHB.
    Note: At a talk I gave recently in New Haven, CT, I suggested that we form this NEBBA group. The response was a little surprising. The audience burst into applause. I've never had that happen before.
    Mike

  4. #4
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    >We'll, maybe a bit of an agenda.

    Nothing wrong with an agenda Mike. Everybody's got one [img]smile.gif[/img]

    >The audience burst into applause.

    Well Duh! It's a timely idea, wholly appropriate, and way over due. Count me in as an interested party. What I lack in experience I make up for in ignorance!
    Dulcius ex asperis

  5. #5
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    --I hope the group can become a meeting place for NE breeders to get together to share ideas and stock, and for beekeepers to have a place to get quality northern grown stock.--(MP)

    --One rule might be stock must be raised from northern stock, maintained and wintered in the north.--(MP)


    This is a SUPER great idea!

    But with all sincerity, the tough questions do need to be asked.

    Where is the ‘northern divisionary line for this stock’ dictated? Would the creation of a ‘northern breeders organization’ based solely on the political divisionary boundaries set back in 1643 by a group of politicians in the formation of the New England Confederation of states, be counter to the basic fundamentals of northern honeybee biology that is inherently based much on climatic boundaries?

    I understand fully that a boundary must be set somewhere, But this distinction to New England states eliminates for instance very comparable climates found in New York from the pool. And the inclusion of states as far south as Rhode Island and Connecticut leaves out such comparable climates to that found in Northern New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

    Here for instance, the average climatic temperature seems more in line with the description of an area normally referred to as the North East states, rather than in line with colonial America divisions.

    http://www.eduplace.com/ss/maps/pdf/usclim.pdf

    Might be more aptly named “Northeast Breeders Association”, would certainly be inclusive to most northern hardy generics rather than exclusionary by politically set boundaries. A contributing member of New York might for instance might want to be recognized in an inclusive fashion for his contribution, rather than the appearance he is an outsider shipping his bees to the insiders of the New England Confederate States. He might not feel as comfortable wearing a New England Breeders patch, as he would a Northeast Breeders patch. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    But All the best of luck to your plan.

    [size="1"][ December 31, 2006, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ][/size]

  6. #6
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    Yes Joe, I'm considering all that. I just said New England, because that's where I live and where i talk to so many other beekeepers. Of course including NY beekeepers hasa nothing to do with the fact that I have many colonies and apiaries in NW New York state.

    But seriously, you're right. But, where would the dvision lines be drawn? I really am a believer that the best queens come from the best colonies raised under the conditions of your area.

    So, when considering the condiotions...both summer and winter...where would the lines be drawn.

    If we consider the yearly weather and honey/pollen flow conditions of New England, then would New york qualify? Surely. And what of Pennsylvania and New Jersey? Probably. But what about when we get to the middle atlantic states. Surely the flows in for instance Maryland...with their early heavy flows and then notheng isn't the same. And Virginia with an early flow and almost no fall flow.

    So, as you can see, I have been giving some thought to this, but will wait for a consensus of members...once we get things going.
    Mike

  7. #7
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    Hello Mike!

    Thanks for understanding my question, as not being hostile!

    I would certainly be very interested in a ‘North East Breeders Association‘.

    IMO, the inclusion of the entire North East area gives us the stability in numbers of participating members, and a variety of genetics to draw from. And the majority of the north east is keeping bees in somewhat similar climatic conditions in relation to the region.

    I would think your concern that the best bees are adapted to ones specific area is a valid one. This is a important concern of mine also, and can be addressed by adopting sub-chapters throughout the north east, each addressing concerns specific to their one environmental conditions and bee needs. I am positive that Bjornbee would interested in the Pennsylvania chapter along with myself. But, we might have to fight over who’s gonna be President. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    [size="1"][ December 31, 2006, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ][/size]

  8. #8
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    Hello Mike!
    Thanks for understanding my question, as not being hostile!

    I'm not a hostile person, Joe. I'm not afraid to say when I disagree, or don't understand. And I really do listen to what everyone has to say.

    Joe said:
    IMO, the inclusion of the entire North East area gives us the stability in numbers of participating members, and a variety of genetics to draw from. And the majority of the north east is keeping bees in somewhat similar climatic conditions in relation to the region.

    Then where do we draw the line? Where does the northeast become the Midwest, or the Midatlantic?

  9. #9
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    Of course it's up to a vote, but I suggest to draw it here with PA and NJ the southern most states, and the average temperature in January of at least that of 32 F at the bottom end. AND inclusive to only the states in the North East, United States due to the weather conditions and similar flows existing specific to the region.

    http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/thema...rature-jan.gif

    [size="1"][ December 31, 2006, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ][/size]

  10. #10

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    Hello Gentlemen -
    What would be the intention of the Association? Information sharing and ? Would this be an organization of/for professional Beekeepers and Queen breeders or would this also include "backyard/hobby" queen breeders?
    I'd love to find a source for really local queens - I've got a couple - he/she has a couple - a way to find this information would encourage people to try calling around a few local beeks before ordering a queen "from away."
    I had great luck rearing my own queens last year and plan to continue. Ofcourse I've still got LOTS to learn and would be thrilled to be "in on the conversation" of the local professional breeders.
    Thoughts?

  11. #11
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    I sould suggest the Mason Dixon line except if I was doing it I would Geryymander to exclude Joe and Bjorn!

    In all seriousness the winters in NJ are much milder as my NYC market experiance tells me their growing season has a huge jump on ours. Northern PA (expecially Bradford) is certainly a New England Climate in most parts but having lived in Chambersburg for several years I know the weather in the southern part of the state is much more settled. If you are looking for cold weather survivor stock I would consider that fact.

    Technically New York is part of New England since Massachusettes has claimed much of New York (to Pre-Emption road in Dundee-30 mi north of me) since the boundries were drawn centuries ago! Anyone else know the details of this little historical fact?

    [size="1"][ January 01, 2007, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Joel ][/size]

  12. #12
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    Technically New York is part of New England since Massachusettes has claimed much of New York (to Pre-Emption road in Dundee-30 mi north of me) since the boundries were drawn centuries ago! Anyone else know the details of this little historical fact?


    Yeah, but New York and Massachusets forgot to ask what the Vermonters had to say. They said...to quote a later general..."Nuts," and formed their own state. And that, in later generations, left the flatlanders to pay ridiculous sums of money to go skiing in the Green Mountains, and for Vermont products of all kinds. Surely an attempt to get back a small reminder of what was lost.

  13. #13
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    Hello Gentlemen -
    What would be the intention of the Association?

    Two fold...a place for producers to get to gether and compare notes and stock.

    ...a place for consumers to buy bees and queens raised in the north and away from the influence of AHB.

    I see a web site to be used to highlight each producers stock and philosophy about survivor stock, etc, and a place where a beekeeper can go to find stock suitable to their beekeeping location and methods...really local queens, as you say.

    Also, I believe that Northeast beekeepers could become self sufficient in in their queen and bee needs. But, surely not now, the way things are now. Everyone is way too disjointed. Going off in a million directions. We need to identify what we're up against.

    How many packages of bees are shipped into the northease each year? How many queens?

    And, how many producers are there here that could furnish quality bees and queens...when the beekeepers need them.

    Seems like a daunting task, but one I think achievable.

    You ask, just how do you propose to supply northern beekeepers the bees they need, when most need their packages in April, and in the north we can't make splits until May. Isn't that why the south raises most of out northerners' bees?

    Well, you make nucs in mid-summer, and overwinter them. This gives you nucs in April.

    My primary goal in forming the NEBBA, and in my beekeeping education...and in fact...posting on these internet newsgroups...is not to, in some way benefit. If all you beekeepers that must buy bees each spring to replace deadouts, or to make increase would only listen. More and more of us are saying it. Grow your own bees. Once you are familiar with the process, and have learned to winter nucleus colonies, you'll have all the bees you want. Then we can concentrate on stock improvement...hence the web site.

  14. #14
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    --I know the weather in the southern part of the state is much more settled. If you are looking for cold weather survivor stock I would consider that fact.-=-(Joel)

    Hello Joel!

    For what it's worth,

    Consider the fact that you have varying conditions all over the north. But they all ARE, and a fact to consider,,, a place to find cold weather survivor stock.

    IMO, to be tweaking at this early point would set too many variables in to play at a early stage of the game and IMO exclusionary in nature.

    Do we exclude Bradford because it is not as cold as Erin, NY? Do we exclude Erin, NY because it is not as cold as St. Albans, Vermont? Do we exclude St. Albans, Vermont because it is not as cold as some parts of Maine? Some might take thier bees to Florence SC or Florida for winter, how do we figure that in?

    IMO, this microclimatic issues are a BIG concern to all in the north because I am not necessarily shopping for stock further north than mine. IMO, these things can be addressed in the association list of breeders “description of specific environment“. I would hope the goal would be to “promote the shopping around for stock” and “NOT restricting of stock based on degree of northerenerness” or special interests.

    I would hope that the association works by “enabling beekeepers to match environments with what they are looking for“. And the exclusion of parts of the North East based on the degree of winter experienced might perhaps be counter productive to this goal, IF in fact it is a GOAL.

    We are all northern beekeepers, and I would avoid the appearance of competition between areas or giving one are priority based on anything but the performance of the bees at the colony level.

    [size="1"][ January 01, 2007, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ][/size]

  15. #15
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    --Technically New York is part of New England since Massachusettes has claimed much of New York (to Pre-Emption road in Dundee-30 mi north of me) since the boundries were drawn centuries ago!--(MP)

    OK, I see this will be determined by politics and loopholes and not bee biology. [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Let me know when someone here figures out the what the definition of Northern Bees is.

    Good luck in your venture!

  16. #16
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    >Some might take thier bees to Florence SC or Florida for winter, how do we figure that in?

    I would say that beekeepers wintering in SC of FL are out. One of the main concerns with northern beekeepers would be to exclude AHB. Bees wintered in SC and FL could not guarantee non-exposure to AHB, and just how is the southern beekeeper going to select for wintering abilities and tracheal mite resistance?

  17. #17
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    I am very interested in Queen breeding and would like to contribute. I have grown my own and would like to find a way to improve my stock.

  18. #18
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    mobees, send me your address. I'll add you to the list

  19. #19
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    Hi All-

    I've been waiting for Mike to flesh out his idea a bit more, and he's begun to do that. I've started several messages but aborted them because... I don't know why. Just couldn't get a good start. Wanted to chew on the idea some more. Decided to wait to see what direction it was heading. Anyways..

    This is an idea whose time has come. I wouldn't want to see it fail to launch because it got too complicated or too ambitions too fast. I also wouldn't want to see it fall short of it's goals, which I believe are realistic. How can we go about clarifying those goals and start working toward them?

    Getting a handle on the scope of the project would seem to be pretty important step- some good numbers on the demand for bees and queens in the northeast for example, and the number of beekeepers in the area and what kind of operations they run and how they meet their bee and queen needs would be good things to know. It would help in figuring out how to proceed. Not sure the best way to go about getting this information, perhaps the individual state;s apiary programs might have some useful information to get started.

    I spent a little time this afternoon looking at the USDA zone maps in the hopes it would help figure out the best geographic range of the organization. Interesting, but I see no clear solution to the question based on hardiness zones. Maybe the rest of you could look them over and see what you think.

    When this organization gets off the ground and starts making waves, we'll likely see the formation of other similar organizations in other parts of the country with many opportunities for collaboration and the exchange of information and ideas. Sounds exciting.

    So these are some of my initial thoughts. Off to bed to read my new BC, then sleep, per chance to dream [img]smile.gif[/img]
    Dulcius ex asperis

  20. #20
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    This is exactly my concern. That's why I wanted to start with New England...my home town. I know the area, and many of the beekeepers. Keeping it simple is a wise thought. But, I can also see the wisdom of including PA and NY...besides, we can't leave out Waggle.
    But seriously...

    >When this organization gets off the ground and starts making waves, we'll likely see the formation of other similar organizations in other parts of the country with many opportunities for collaboration and the exchange of information and ideas. Sounds exciting.

    There already are others starting. Dr Larry Connor has been telling me of an Ohio group that may be forming. I'm sure the southern package/queen producers must have their own group, and have for years. Am I wrong in this?

    Well George, Give it some thought. All ideas are on the table. I'll check back in after next Sunday, the 7th. I'm going to Eugene Oregon tomorrow, to do some skiing with my daughter. Not enough snow around here to say so.

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