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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Cooperstown,N.Y.
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    474

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    I have a somewhat dated bee library...mostly used copies from the 1940's-1970's,and some more recent ones.

    I keep re-reading about how superior the "alpine carniolans" or the"mountain cacasians"are to the carni's or cacasians that are "from the plains".

    Also,how that "their thorax's are covered with gray hair"...and "their abdominal segments are grey with white bands".

    That doesn't sound like my carni's.Definitetly not my NWC's.

    I keep wondering,any body raising the mountain type carni's?

    Have they,thru importation laws,become"discontinued"?

    I also have wondered ,just what is an "old world carniolan"?

    Thanks for your help...

    Mark Johnson

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
    Posts
    6,080

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    Hello Mark,

    Keep in mind that most references are geared toward the original look and characteristics of the strain brought over from one time or another. Breeding efforts to select color change the appearance.

    You may see a host of color range within all the bee strains. Some are selected for particular appearances although the next breeder may use other criteria for selection, with appearance being further down the chart. You hear some as "Wooten's Goldens" and "Gray mountain caucasians", etc.

    Most I feel are a hybrid mix of some breed or another, and different from the characteristics that the books use as reference. There are very few closed breeding sites within the U.S. that could guarantee long term purity of one line versus another. Selection, drone saturation, and other management of breeding efforts should keep the lines as pure as can be from a practical sense. You should expect something close to the natural starting point when getting bees, if they are marketed and sold with such labels.

    The better the breeder is at breeding true lines of bees, without outside genetics interference, the truer the strain will be. Although I feel there are much more important criteria for selcted breeding other than appearance, I do feel my italians should look italian, my russians should look like italians, and my carni's should look carni, from a "classic" sense of what they originally were.

    There is still many well defined characteristics that set the different strains apart. I have seen rather light carni's and almost black ones. I put much more wieght into the quality of the individual breeder to select traits that I desire, and much less on the appearance. But still sometimes an eyebrow is raised.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Cooperstown,N.Y.
    Posts
    474

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    Hey Bjorn,
    Thanks.

    I agree,I think the queen breeder you choose,as an individual,is maybe MORE important than the queen.That sounds strange I know...

    I guess I kind of figured the the original stock had been blended into an all together(better or worse)line of bee.

    Sorta like I've heard that the American "Italian" is more yellow than the "Italian Italian"

    I just wanted to ask,I see the Karnica(sp?)webbsite bragging up their "big gray bees" and wondered if there are any "gray" carnis around.

    I thought you got some gray caucians?

    I LOVE my carnis.

    Just have been thinking about this question,and finally asked!

    Anybody wanna take a stab at what is an Old World carni?

    Mark

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lewisberry, Pa, usa
    Posts
    6,080

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    Mark,
    Besides the marketing impact and the need to seperate the lines from a distinguishable level, the old world carni's are the original carni stock that breeders have been breeding from for many years. The new world carni's are a line bred for certain traits and the project is headed by S. Colby. I am not certain if she had new carni stock brought in from the original origins in central europe or just used existing carni stock already in the states.(Anyone know?)

    Its kind of like asking whats the difference between Wootens Golden, Cordovan, and banded italians. Each is marketed with difefrent names to distinguish certain propogated lines, a breeders long standing efforts in breeding certain traits, etc.

    If you look at a bee map of the races of the bee lines such as Carnica, melifera, caucasica, ligustica, etc, you see there are a certain number of races. Beyond any further breakdown, this should be attributed to breeder selection, labeling, and marketing efforts to distinguish selected traits.

    The above is my "off the hip" reply, and if someone has clearer details, hopefully they can add to this.

    I wanted some gray mountain cuacasians a couple years ago. Bolling Bee (only place I know that advertises them) had some problems that have hopefully cleared by now. If I hear some success stories in beekeepers acquiring them I may consider ordering some.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Western North Carolina
    Posts
    105

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    The New World Carnolians are simply Carnies gathered from all over the US and Canada and selected & bred in a closed population. This has been going on since the late 70's / early 80's as I recall. These bees genetics are controlled through the use of selection and Instrumental Insemination. No outside genetic influence enters this program. And yes, she will introduce other carnie genetics if and only if, after sever years of observation, they prove worthwhile. Last year she was able to import some German stock that has been reviewed for the past several years.
    Intrestingly, the Germans have been selecting carnies for some time also and apparently have a very good bee. I was fortunate enough to obtain three German drone mothers for the upcoming year.
    Anyone who advertises New World Carnolian Queens should be able to say that they obtained the queen moms from Sue Cobey. Else, at best you are buying F2 queens.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    tulsa, ok usa
    Posts
    2,264

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    Sue Coby’s NWC tend to be darker and less banded than the European counterparts. Sue does tend to favor the solid color drones when she does II. She has recently been able to importe semen from Europe and those queens have a different color than her established line. My NWC queens from her tend not to be banded and are black. The four queens I have from her with the European semen are banded with brown and black bands. Once the weather warms up I will try to get a picture.

    It will be interesting to see what type of temperament these hives will have.

    And yes, she will introduce other carnie genetics if and only if, after sever years of observation, they prove worthwhile.
    Not everyone has to wait, but I make the Ruby Sting Hooks for her.

    [size="1"][ December 05, 2006, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: magnet-man ][/size]
    Home of the ventilated and sting resistant Ultra Breeze bee suits and jackets
    http://www.honeymoonapiaries.com

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    tulsa, ok usa
    Posts
    2,264

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    Beesurv, as a whole I would agree with you if you do not get your breeder queens from Sue you are getting an F2 queen. However, both Tim and I do II and have F1 queens from Sue, so our selected II queens would also be F1 queens. There is someone else on Beesource that has F1 queens from Sue and does II.

    It is such a bummer that II is so expensive to get into.
    Home of the ventilated and sting resistant Ultra Breeze bee suits and jackets
    http://www.honeymoonapiaries.com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Lima, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    725

    Post

    You could always outsource your II: http://www.ohioqueenbreeders.com/i_i__services.htm

    Not exactly cheap, but if you are only doing a few it could be much cheaper than the 1000's for the equipment.

    -Tim

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    597

    Post

    .
    MW: "I have a somewhat dated bee library...mostly used copies from the 1940's-1970's"

    I have nursed bees 45 years. During that time breeding of bees have developed and bees give 3-4 times more honey from hive than in good old days. Maybe bees look same but they are not same any more.

    The biggest change has happened in breeding after inseminating.

    The change is to be seen in the size of colonies. Hives are 3 times bigger than 40 years ago.

    How hives bring honey, it depends strogly on pastures too.

    Good queens, big hives, good pastures =big yields.

    .

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