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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
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    Seattle, Washington State
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    I have a question... and please remember.. I am not a woodworker but... if you need a recipe... just come to ME!!!

    Anyway, I would like to over winter some nucs and use a deep hive body and split it into two sections. I have to deeps already put together.

    How do I make the division board seperating two sections? I know each deep might not be put together "right" so I am curious to how to make the dividing board.

    I would like to over winter these nucs like Michael palmer suggests which is placing a deep hive body split into two sections and placing it on top of the inner cover of a strong hive. So I suppose the diving board needs to be long enough to touch the inner cover, eh?

    I also bought the yellow following boards that are sold out there and I do not think they work so well. Anyone have these?
    Chef Isaac..Culinary Arts and Honey are a sweet mix! http://www.sweetascanbeehoneyfarm.com & http://www.adoptahive.info

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
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    NE Calif.
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    2,359

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    You can use 1/4 inch ply or masonite for the divider.A router with a 5/16 bit can be used to cut the groove 3/8 deep into the assembled boxes, but its much easier to cut the grooves before assembly with a table saw.You can nail small strips to hold the divider if you dont want to cut grooves.I have a bunch of these divided boxes. I staple a piece of plastic tarp to the divider to make sure the 2 nucs cant intermingle.

    [size="1"][ July 08, 2006, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: loggermike ][/size]

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Whitefield, Maine USA
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    >How do I make the division board seperating two sections?

    I'm doing it several ways. Micheal Palmer's approach is to divide the deep into two 4-frame nucs with a division board feeder specially compartmentalized and built to allow access from either side without letting the bees mix. The feeder fits tightly at the ends and effectively divides the hive body. The whole thing sits on a specially built bottom board providing an outside entrance for each half on opposite sides of the box. There's a 3/8" rim around the bottom board and a 3/8" shim down the middle that the division board feeder sits on top of. He uses a grain sack for an inner cover and I think a piece of styrofoam on top of that, and a telescoping cover.

    I'm going to try the above and have already built a number of bottom boards for the purpose. In addition to the division board feeder method, I'm going to try some with a 1/4" divider set into a dado groove in the deep and put candy covers on them, rather than division board feeders. These will be 5 frame nucs. I'm also hatching a scheme for a 3rd method utilizing the same bottom board design but a different manner of feeding. They'll probably be 5 frame nucs too.

    >So I suppose the diving board needs to be long enough to touch the inner cover, eh?

    Diving board? That's on the division board feeder Chef....

    As I said, he uses a specially built bottom board made out of 3/8" or 1/2" plywood with a rim around it. If you wanted to put your split deep on an inner cover, I suppose you could but you'd need to provide entrances for the nucs and you'd need to use a solid inner cover or cover the hole in the inner cover with wood- screen wouldn't do as you don't want the moisture from the colony downstairs rising up into your nucs. That would be bad. Warmth yes, moisture no.

    The bottom board design Michael uses is simple enough, but it could be made even simpler using just a piece of plywood and a bunch of 3/8" thick strips of 3/4" lumber tacked onto it.

    I've got photos of a Michael Palmer designed 4 frame nuc with bottom board and division board feeder that a friend of mine built. I see if I can find them.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    Troupsburg, NY
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    I don't feel there is much advantage to wintering nucs over the top of strong colonies. If you don't use screen, there isn't much in the way of warmth that is going to get to the nuc from the stronger hive. There are more disadvantages to doing this, really doesn't warrent the extra work.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Crown Point , (NW) Indiana
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    529

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    [Diving board? That's on the division board feeder...]

    My feeders don't have diving boards and I still have lots of drowned bees. Imagine if they did have diving boards, all those little bees with broken necks just floating in the mix!

    Maybe we can design a feeder with a slide, that would be much safer then a diving board any day!

    Sorry george, I know it was an honest spelling mistake but I couldn't refuse the opportunity for a joke (even if it is bad).

    JEFF
    There is always more than one way to skin a cat, that's of course if you're into eating cats.

  6. #6
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    Jul 2004
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    anyone ever use or have the yellow dividers or following boards??
    Chef Isaac..Culinary Arts and Honey are a sweet mix! http://www.sweetascanbeehoneyfarm.com & http://www.adoptahive.info

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2005
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    Whitefield, Maine USA
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    >Sorry george, I know it was an honest spelling mistake

    Don't apologize to me, apologize to Chef, he made it! I normally overlook spelling errors if I can figure out what they're talking about, but this time I just couldn't resist...

    >anyone ever use or have the yellow dividers or following boards??

    Not I. I assume they're adjustable plastic? Making them bee-tight is the trick. It's not so much a problem if you're just shrinking hive space, but if you're dividing 2 colonies, it wants to be bee-tight. Bees can squeeze through not much more than an 1/8" gap.

    >If you don't use screen, there isn't much in the way of warmth that is going to get to the nuc from the stronger hive.

    I disagree. The top of a 2 deep hive represents 22% of the total surface area of the hive. Heat from the cluster inside the hive is going to radiate pretty much equally in all directions. Neglecting heat loss through convection currents and ventilation and the fact that heat rises and other factors such as cluster location (which is usually nearer the top than the bottom), the effect of wrapping, and any insulative materials used on the sides and top of the hive such as a tarpaper or homosote boards, I think we can assume that at least 22% of the heat loss in a 2 deep hive is going to be through the top. That's not insignificant in my opinion.

    I certainly can't speak to the effectiveness of wintering nucs on top of full sized colonies because I haven't done it yet, but I know other people that have tried it and believe it's effective and worthwhile. Michael Palmer certainly thinks so.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  8. #8

    Post

    If you divide a hive body into four small nucs that would mean your frames would need to be half the length they normally are.

    Where can you purchase these frames or do you need to make them yourself?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,742

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    >anyone ever use or have the yellow dividers or following boards??

    I have. I never had much luck with them. The easiest time to inlet a divider is before you assemble the boxes. I'd put two saw blades together in a skill saw to get the 1/4" wide groove (since they are already assembled). If they weren't assembled you could do it on the table saw with a 1/4" dado blade. You could also do it with a 1/4" router bit on a router. In which case I'd clamp a piece of one by on for a guide.

    I'd make the divider out of 1/4" luan.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    "I disagree. The top of a 2 deep hive represents 22% of the total surface area of the hive. Heat from the cluster inside the hive is going to radiate pretty much equally in all directions. Neglecting heat loss through convection currents and ventilation and the fact that heat rises and other factors such as cluster location (which is usually nearer the top than the bottom), the effect of wrapping, and any insulative materials used on the sides and top of the hive such as a tarpaper or homosote boards, I think we can assume that at least 22% of the heat loss in a 2 deep hive is going to be through the top. That's not insignificant in my opinion."

    George

    I disagree with your disagreement. Most of us know that the winter cluster does not heat the entire hive area. It is my feeling that the outer layer of the cluster contains the heat, much like insulation, which is why the outer layers of the cluster are lethargic. It is also why condisation tends to freeze inside the hive, which is why ventilation is so important. It would take alot more stores to get a hive through the winter if they just let their heat radiate off that way. I don't believe the cluster will give off enough heat to do a nuc any good if it is seperated from the strong hive by a solid cover.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
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    That is what I thought too Peggjam. I talked with Maechael Palmer about it and he does beleieve that the heat does heat up the wood. He sees that all the clusters..both from the big hive and nucs are in the same location which leads him to believe that the warm of each cluster is adding to the overall warmth.

    I am still a little skeptical about if it is enough heat to ehat up the wood. But I am willing to try it out.
    Chef Isaac..Culinary Arts and Honey are a sweet mix! http://www.sweetascanbeehoneyfarm.com & http://www.adoptahive.info

  12. #12
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    Jul 2004
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    I have never used a router before. I suppose that is what my dads for [img]smile.gif[/img] .
    Chef Isaac..Culinary Arts and Honey are a sweet mix! http://www.sweetascanbeehoneyfarm.com & http://www.adoptahive.info

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Owen, WI, USA
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    2,560

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    George and Paggjam
    There may not be MUCH extra heat up there but it is enough to make a difference in where the mice like to build their nests. When we wrapped and wintered here in Wisconsin, the number one choice for mouse nests was on the top of the hive. We never insulated around the hives, just used roofing paper but we did put a square of insulation on top, under the telescope, as heat rises. The mice knew, that's for sure! [img]smile.gif[/img]
    Sheri

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Owen, WI, USA
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    Those bees give off a lot of heat all winter long, as they need to stay warm enough to eat. We used to winter quite a few in an unheated, uninsulated room. We gave them no winterizing at all, just stacked them up in the dark. Our problem was not keeping ghem warm enough, it was keeping them cool enough. Even with the temps below zero for weeks at a time, we needed a big ventilation unit to keep them cooled down.
    Sheri

    Sheri

  15. #15
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    Mar 2005
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    "Those bees give off a lot of heat all winter long, as they need to stay warm enough to eat."

    In the center of the cluster, yes, but to give it off to empty space, I don't think so. The heat, if any, is from vapors...water vapor, CO2..ect. I think we need to define what we consider heat. I consider alot of heat would keep the entire inside of the hive at 32 degrees or above. How do you define it?
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  16. #16
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    Nov 2004
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    I suppose "a lot of heat" is a fairly subjective term, isn't it, lol.
    Actually, the temp of the surface of the cluster, and the interior, is kept at about 45 degrees. The bees on the outside ARE insulation, as is the honey stores they need to stay next to. You are right that they would not want to keep the entire hive 32 but of course there will be some heat migration. The less the better from the bees point of view.
    When you look at bees wintering on pallets up here in this cold climate (before we decided the bees needed to work all winter in California), the bees tend to cluster towards the walls of the neighboring clusters, forming a larger , albiet disconnected, cluster. If they didn't put off ANY heat, I doubt there would be any benefit associated. In fact, how would they even know to do this if no heat migrated between them?
    Ideally, every hive going into winter would be large enough to generate their own heat, but barring that, I think nukes wintering together would benefit from each other's mass and the mass of the colony beneath it, even when seperated by wood. We aren't talking mega degrees here, but every little bit helps when those cold winds blow. Can't hurt.
    One issue might be drifting. When wrapping it would help to put differentiation near the seperate enterances, or maybe even turn the nukes to open in different directions.
    Sheri

  17. #17
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    May 2005
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    >I disagree with your disagreement.

    Geez peggjam, can you do that? Don't we have to agree to disagree?

    Take a look at this document "THE THERMOLOGY OF WINTERING HONEY BEE COLONIES" if you haven't already. It's pretty facinating and has pictures [img]smile.gif[/img]

    http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/th...lletin1429.htm

    What becomes clear from the above study is that honey bee clusters both generate and lose a considerable amount of heat over the winter. Granted, they do a good job of insulating the core of the cluster, but there's no such thing as a perfect insulator, there's always going to be heat loss with heat moving from warm to less warm.

    Some of this heat loss is through conduction by the air, and moist air conducts (and holds) heat better than dry air. Then there is radiant heat loss and this does in fact involve heat radiating off into space and heating to a lesser extent the air it passes through and to a greater extent anything solid it runs into- like the combs, hive walls and lid. There's also heat loss due to convection- heat being carried away by air movement.

    All this heat coming from the cluster doesn't just disappear, the loss tends to end up heating the hive body which in turn radiates it's heat off into the great outdoors. It's no accident, as cold as it got here last winter, there was rarely any snow on top of my hives. Right after a storm sure, but it didn't take long for it to melt.

    So the only question in my mind is how much heat comes off a cluster and goes out through the top of the hive- not if. Considering all the methods of heat transfer- conduction, convection, and radiation, and other factors such as the R-Value of wood, cluster location, and air movement, I don't see how the heat loss out the top can be any less than 22% of the total heat loss of the hive and in reality it is probably considerably more.

    For an incredibly illustrative picture of heat loss in honey bee colonies, check out these pictures taken with an infrared camera. They're partway down the page, you'll have to scroll:

    http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2004/diary011004.htm

    There's a couple of other pictures a bit further on down the page too.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  18. #18
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    May 2005
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    >I have never used a router before. I suppose that is what my dads for

    You can always just rip up some thin strips of wood and tack them to the inside of the hive body to form a channel for the diving board.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    Troupsburg, NY
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    "Take a look at this document "THE THERMOLOGY OF WINTERING HONEY BEE COLONIES" if you haven't already."

    I have read this, and it still doesn't convince me that there is a useful amount of heat that escapes from a winter cluster, that would give a nuc any advantage over one that was not on top of a strong hive. Those same nucs packed side by side and covered with insulating board would be just as effective as placing on top of a hive, with none of the drawbacks. Figure 1 shows that tempitures drop fast just inches from the cluster. I just don't think it is worth the extra effort. You might better spend time and resources on learning to winter nucs by themselves.
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  20. #20
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    May 2005
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    >Figure 1 shows that tempitures drop fast just inches from the cluster.

    Radiant heat doesn't heat the air much as it passes through it. It heats wet air better than dry air. I'm reminded of sitting in front of a camp fire when it's -25F outside and the palms of my hands are burning from the heat and the backs of my hands are burning from the cold.

    So the only thing we really disagree on peggjam is not whether heat comes off the cluster, but how much and whether it's significant.

    >You might better spend time and resources on learning to winter nucs by themselves.

    Most of the successful methods I've run across involve wintering them over on top of strong colonies [img]smile.gif[/img]
    Dulcius ex asperis

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