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  1. #41

    Post

    Yeah, I agree with the article. I thought it was very well written and generally "hit the nail right on the head". It was SO MUCH better than most "general consumption" type honeybee articles you come across. I, personally, wouldn't be too critical of the article - seems like he did a pretty good job to me.
    --
    Perhaps he should have used the term AHB in lieu of his more generic term ("wild") but since the article was entitled, "Africanized..." it wasn't a great leap of faith to assume that's what he really meant. And I certainly agree, there is no living with an Africanized colony in close proximity - his advise is pretty sound if you ask me.

  2. #42
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    Post

    Ok here is an article that deals with Africanized bees potential impact on commercial pollination in Ca. http://bees.ucr.edu/sinaloa.html
    IMHO the consensus opinion on the nature of this bee is pretty well established.Its a ***** in the 'pure' form but with with intensive culling and selection,the hybrids can be managed(but we probably wont like their temper)

  3. #43
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    >Perhaps he should have used the term AHB in lieu of his more generic term ("wild") but since the article was entitled, "Africanized..." it wasn't a great leap of faith to assume that's what he really meant. And I certainly agree, there is no living with an Africanized colony in close proximity - his advise is pretty sound if you ask me.

    I agree there is no living with AHB's around. Been there. Done that. But I think he's assuming all "wild bees" are AHB and they are not. I think feral survivors are one of our most valuable assets.

  4. #44

    Post

    I think it's evident from his article that he personally, knows not all feral bees are AHB; but yes, the premise of his article was the advice to consider all such bees as (potentially) AHB. While this may come across to you and me (as beekeepers) as being a little "heavy handed" - I'm not sure it's bad advice for the general public (for whom he wrote the article).

    > I think feral survivors are one of our most valuable assets.

    I don't disagree with your statement if you're talking about the potential "good" genetics they may offer.
    --
    One of the great questions I've been waiting to see how it 'plays out' is the Varroa mite verses the AHB. Would AHB continue to expand their territory in the face of the Varroa onslaught? ...or would the Varroa decimate AHB feral colonies like they did the European feral colonies a few years ago?

    But now that some {apparently} Varroa resistant genetics have been introduced to various managed hives, will the resistance transfer over to feral AHBs (thus allowing for their continued expansion throughout the south and west)? In any event, it will be most interesting to see what happens over the next decade...

  5. #45

    Post

    Could Lusby's bees resist AHB, and have some thelytoky, by having some A. mellifera capensis parentage?

    Maybe these traits will accompany some intriguing SHB resistance in LUS bees as well.

    Brian Cady

    [This message has been edited by briancady413 (edited December 30, 2003).]

  6. #46

    Post

    Maybe LUS bee thelytoky prevents hive Africanization - like South African Cape bee beekeeppers, perhaps the Lusby's have been using virgin laying queens all these years without visible indication.

    Mother Mary!

    [This email is at least partly in jest]

    Brian Cady

  7. #47
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    Post

    I think Dee has her theories. The most prominent and likely one, I think, is that they are native American honey bees. If they DO have any cape bee genes in them, they got expressed in a usuful positive manner rather than a destructive manner.

  8. #48

    Question

    Michael,
    What do you mean by the term "native American honey bees"? (Please define)
    --
    Also, I note the article you sighted is well over ten years old. Do you know of any later (follow-up) research on this supposed thelytoky?

  9. #49
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    >What do you mean by the term "native American honey bees"? (Please define)

    I think it's self defining. Bees that were native to America.
    http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000039.html

    Look at the "EXCERPT FROM THE HISTORY OF MEXICO"

    >Also, I note the article you sighted is well over ten years old. Do you know of any later (follow-up) research on this supposed thelytoky?

    I do not know of any other research on the matter. I would not tend to call conclusions from research done by E.H. Erickson Jr. of the USDA Carl Hayden Bee Research lab "supposed".

    Thelytoky has been noted in European honey bees as an exception that occurs on occasion. I cannot say for sure that I have observed it but occasionally I have had no other simple explanation for a queen cell in a previously queenless hive with a laying worker. At the time I was wondering if they stole an egg from somewhere.
    http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/...l/log9901c.txt (look for Thelytoky)
    http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/thelytoky.html


    (see also L.E. Snelgrove's queen rearing book)

    Here are some studies that show that our commercial stock is unrealted to the feral stock. Why? Why wouldn't their drones mate with commercial stock?
    http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/jee1995.htm

  10. #50

    Exclamation

    I note a major point of semantics: no one is saying that 'Apis' was native to the American continent; only that "honey bees" were. So, in that regard, I agree. There were "honeybees" here - they were just a different species than Apis and not capable of breeding with Apis.

    But as applicable to specifically Apis:

    > Look at the "EXCERPT FROM THE HISTORY OF MEXICO"

    Yep, that was written 130 years (minimum) AFTER the first "documented" European honeybees where brought over on an English ship to an east coast port (1620). And most probably at least 100+ years AFTER Spanish settlers began their settlement of Mexico.
    While I don't personally know of any firm evidence that sights Spanish settlers having brought over Apis by the 1530's, I'd nevertheless say it's a good bet they had! (They had a 100+ year ahead start on the English in settling the north American continent).
    So while some may elect to believe that Apis' existence on the north American continent pre-dates European settlement, that is not the prevailing judgment in most of the scientific and historical community.
    --
    > I would not tend to call conclusions...

    I very carefully looked that article over even before I posted my earlier comment, and was actually looking for any "conclusions" they were drawing in that article and there weren't any! (They had a section called "Discussions" and one called "Results" but did not offer any "Conclusions" as is usual with most scientific papers). That is the main reason I asked if there had been any follow-up studies done - I wanted to read about any "conclusions" that may have been reached.
    Let me clarify my use of the term "supposed" from my earlier posting. As best I could tell from the article they had identified only one successful queen that had been raised from several queenless colonies under study. And Michael, I agree with you: I too, have had colonies requeen themselves in a most mysterious way (at least, that I couldn't readily explain). But to say these particular bees under study (LUS) have any special thelytoky-capable genetic strain is a stretch. And I note the article certainly didn't arrive at that "conclusion". It was from that perspective that I used the term 'supposed thelytoky' - nothing was proved and no conclusions about thelytoky genetics were drawn.

  11. #51
    > Here are some studies that show that our commercial stock is unrealted to the feral stock.

    Funny, I didn't get that at all from the article.

    This is a quote from the article you sighted:
    > The extent of gene flow between feral and commercial honey bee populations is unknown...
    and
    > Gene flow between commercial and feral populations likely has occured through swarming and open matings...

    These comments certainly don't reflect a belief that matings between feral Apis and "managed" Apis don't occurr.



  12. #52
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    I did not mean that they never occur. Here is a quote from the study:

    "This is significantly different (X2=63.1, P<0.001) than the feral population of the southern United States, where 36.7% of 692 feral colonies had the A. m. mellifera/iberica haplotype (Schiff et al. 1994). The lack of A. m. mellifera haplotypes in the commercial population is indicative of restricted gene flow between feral and commercial populations."

    Which indicates that there is some but a "restricted" flow of genetics between the two.

    If they are all the EHB then wouldn't you expect an even exchange? If the small drone theory of the AHB expansion is true, then since the feral EHB drones are also smaller, you would expect the ferals to have an edge there.

    I am certainly not claiming this proves anything. But it brings up a lot of questions.

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