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  1. #1
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    For those of you with more chemical knowledge than I. How close to certan (B401) would this be??? Is it stronger---bad stuff??? Are the caution labels on certan similar? Just food for thought---for discussion only--- I know its not approved for comb but is it just a political issue?

    https://www.greenbook.net/Library/sh...&WebSiteID=151
    sc-bee

  2. #2
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    It does not require "chemical knowledge" since B401 is NOT a chemical, it is spores and toxin from a bacteria that lives in the gut of the wax worms.

    Different strains have more or less affect on different specific secies larvae of moths and mosquitoes.

    I have not tried anything other than the B401, but those who have tried the strains at the garden centers that are sold for caterpiller control have said they work fine.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #3
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    You would think that there would be
    some level of risk to honey bee larva
    from strains of BT.......

  4. #4
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    I'm not sure where the title of the topic comes from but I'd guess it has to do with the fact that the strain of BT in Certan (berliner serotype 7, I'm sure I misspelled that) isn't the same as what you find in some research on the web
    all I know is Certan works great
    and as Michael says people who've tried stuff from garden centers say it works
    I feel comfotable with Certan since it's been registered in the US in the past
    if I used the stuff from the garden center I'd bee nosey about what strain it is (not that I'd know what that ment)

    Dave

  5. #5
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    I AGREE (no pun intended) . I realize bt is not a chemical, it was a poor choice of words .
    I was just not sure of different strengths etc. compared to certan. Also I think I read could be toxic to bees if bees were foraging when applied do not apply during main forage period ( this was for Xentari not agree but similar). I realize it is intended to use as a spray or dust on crops.
    Do you think this would also apply for use with comb??? Or would it be safe after drying on comb.

    With certan getting harder to find it seems and shipping cost, was just curious.Curosity killed the cat right .

    [size="1"][ July 09, 2006, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: sc-bee ][/size]
    sc-bee

  6. #6
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    sc-bee

    my first experience with this stuff was last year,
    in my first experiements with small cell I took two frames of drawn out peirco out of my hive and replaced them with SC foundation
    the drawn combs sat in my basement for a couple of weeks and the wax moths started in on them
    I got some certan and used it and it stoped the moths
    over the rest of the summer I removed many more frames of drawn LC comb and treated them with certan and wax moths were no problem
    it seems like that was a pretty good test
    maybe pull a couple of frames and treat 1 with XenTari and make one a control
    the add for XenTari says it doesn't hurt bees and since they market it for vegetables I hope it won't hurt me

    http://www.valentbiosciences.com/agr...products_6.asp

    let us know how it goes if you experiment

    Dave

  7. #7
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    Here's a list of commercial preps
    of Bt.

    XenTari is interesting as it comes
    in 2.5 gallon jugs for large scale
    use. That is, if it is effective on
    wax moths........


    Bacillus thuringiensis (B.t.) - for loopers.
    Agree (3.8% a.i.): 1-2 lb/A.
    Biobit XL FC (2.1% a.i.): 1-3 pt/A.
    CryMax WDG (15% a.i.): 0.5-1.5 lb/A.
    Cutlass 10WP: 1-2 lb/A.
    DiPel 4L (1.76% a.i.): 1-2 pt/A.
    DiPel 2X WP (6.4% a.i.): 0.5-1.0 lb/A.
    Javelin WG (6.4% a.i.): 0.5-1 lb/A.
    Mattch (12% a.i.): 2-8 pt/A.
    MVP (10% a.i.): 1-4 qt/A.
    Troy-BT FC (26% a.i.): 2 oz/A.
    XenTari WDG: 0.25-l lb/A.

  8. #8
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    Sundance,

    do you know what all those numbers mean?
    I'm guessing the stuff in parenthesis is percent concetration of some strain, but it looks like all of em with that info are "a.i."
    {edit} I guess my question is about the second number
    it's amount per "A"
    what is "A"
    angstrom, astronomical unit "about that much"??

    I predict somebody is going to wade in and tell us the USDA is sending the black helicopters in to come and get us

    don't worry guy's, it's just a discussion

    Fred (from Albania) [img]smile.gif[/img]

    [size="1"][ July 09, 2006, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ][/size]

  9. #9
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    I have sprayed it directly on bees on comb in nucs that were struggling with wax moths with no noticable ill effects and very noticable positive effects. Usually, though, I'm just spraying it on stored comb to keep the moths out of it.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #10
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    Hey you Albanian rascal, the
    numbers are a recommended rate
    per acre. Usually used for loopers
    on cabbage, brocoli, and simular
    crops.

  11. #11
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    We need the 0.0 oz/HC numbers.

  12. #12
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    I want to take a moment and apologize
    to all Albanians for the above
    reference correlating you to the
    mighty drobbins.

  13. #13
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    Sundance,

    I have the utmost respect for our beekeeping friends from Albania, I just envy their location in the world where the "black helicopters" have insufficient fuel capacity to make their authority known
    as from those numbers, wow, they spread it pretty thin
    I'll stick with Certan

    Dave

  14. #14
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    Agree WG 50% spores and active ingredients???
    label:
    https://www.greenbook.net/docs/Label/L45901.PDF

    also check this website with the following note:

    -----3Not all Bacillus thuringiensis insecticides are safe for bees. The label for XenTari® (Valent Agricultural Products), with active ingredient B. thuringiensis aizawai, reads "This product is highly toxic to honey bees exposed to direct treatment. Do not apply this product while bees are actively visiting the treatment area."


    http://www.ent.uga.edu/pmh/Pesticide...Honey_Bees.htm

    I guess this means if sprayed directly on bees?

    [size="1"][ July 10, 2006, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: sc-bee ][/size]
    sc-bee

  15. #15
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    Aizawai a strain for wax moth.

    Here is a european source.
    http://www.biovet.ch/shop/global/Imk...ml?language=en

    For the source sc-bee listed, I would look at the entire ingredients list and its approved use, and decide if the other ingredients are appropriate to use on something you will be eating. But as far as the BT strain goes, it should kill wax moths. But again there could be contaminates in the BT depending on what it is developed for. I have not read all the PDF's on sc-bee's source as I don't need to store any comb this year. What is it approved for?, and can you immediately eat any vegetables/fruits that have been treated with it? would be the questions I would be asking.

    Here's the instructions for the european source MELLONEX

    Mode of action
    MELLONEX® consists of granules, which contain the active substance Bacillus thuringiensis
    var. aizawai. It is harmless for the user and the bees. The granules are dissolved in water
    and then sprayed on the combs. Shortly after consumption of the treated combs, the wax
    moth larva stops feeding and dies soon thereafter. Small larvae are more susceptible than
    bigger larvae, therefore, it is advisable to treat during early stages of infestations.
    Application
    Concentration Dissolve 7,5 ml MELLONEX® granulate (= 2 spoonfuls) in 100 ml water.
    Spray mixture for both surface of combs 1 comb 10 combs
    Dadant honey comb 20 ml 2 dl
    Langstroth, Shallow super 20 ml 2 dl
    Generally 17 ml for each 0.1 m2 surface of honey comb
    · The combs must be sprayed completely with the help of a hand spray or a pressure
    spraying appliance.
    · Allow to dry before storing the combs.
    · Avoid use in direct sunlight.
    · Apply immediately after mixing.
    · Only one treatment is needed per season.
    Time
    The combs have to be treated before storing. Treated combs can be installed in the hive
    without problems.
    Content
    180 ml granules, sufficient to treat about 100-150 combs

    [size="1"][ July 10, 2006, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: MichaelW ][/size]

  16. #16
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    Note: Mellonex is harmeless to the bees used in the way described. They did not say to spray it directly on the bees.

    Also I went back and looked at the Agree BT and read this

    If swallowed: Call a poison control center or doctor immediately for treatment
    advice. Have person sip a glass of water if able to swallow. Do not induce
    vomiting unless told to do so by a poison control center or doctor. Do not give
    anything to an unconscious person.
    If on skin or clothing: Take off contaminated clothing. Rinse skin immediately
    with plenty of water for 15-20 minutes.
    Call a poison control center or doctor for treatment advice.

    Pretty big red flag, will look for MTDS on Vita's B-401 product

    [size="1"][ July 10, 2006, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: MichaelW ][/size]

  17. #17
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    Well, looks like it will take some German and possibly French to google all this out.

    Srpikenzie deutsch?
    Parle vu France?

    Hablar espanol? :confused: :confused:

    [size="1"][ July 10, 2006, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: MichaelW ][/size]

  18. #18
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    Keep in mind there is the "cover your
    butt" (I can say butt, can't I?)
    syndrome. I don't think if used as
    it should there is a danger to bees,
    but caution and small trials would
    be wise.

  19. #19
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    My thoughts exactly Michael. All the warnings on the label :confused: :confused: :confused:
    sc-bee

  20. #20
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    Thats why I wanted to look at the MTDS equivalent label for B-401 and compare it. You can't really go by the few statements about B-401 human saftey on the website and then compare that with an indepth label or MTDS. Take for example Apilife-var. The label has all kinds of warnings about skin contact, while advertisements show a guy holding it. ????

    Also it could be that B-401 has actually been scientifically tested on humans (skin contact etc.) while perhapse the GC-91 has not been tested, so they could default to the more cautious precautions for the "cover your butt" factor. Who knows??? not me.

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