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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Tampa Bay Area and Port Charlotte, FL
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    Upon inspecting one of my strongest hives today, I noticed about 8 to 12 cells on both sides of one frame that had what appeared to be poorly developed pupa. See pictures at: Foulbroud? Last week, this brood box had 7 to 8 frames of solid brood. I was extremely happy to see such a tight and large pattern of brood. This is a relatively young hive; as they just recently drew out the second brood box on permacomb foundation and this was the first batch of brood on this foundation. You can see the stain in some cells and others are perfectly clean. The black, deformed pupa do not have any odor and do not stick to the cell or are the pupa in the cells "ropey".

    From what I've read in a few books, I think this may be European Foulbroud but I would like some second opinions. Does anyone know what this may be?... and what action should I take?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Hotlanta, GA
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    475

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    I'm no expert, but looks like sacbrood

    [size="1"][ May 27, 2006, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Branman ][/size]
    Ask two beekeepers, get three answers

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavener Oklahoma
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    928

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    Yelp


    looks like sacbrood to me too In the early stage it will have a sac with a real water fluid in it ...also on cell there look like chalkbrood usally here in oklahoma sacbrood its not a any problem. never see much just one here an there once in a blue moon..

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kiel WI, USA
    Posts
    2,368

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    http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7472

    Send in a sample, it's fast and free.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Whitefield, Maine USA
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    It does not look like european foul brood, I've got some of that in my apiary. It does look like sacbrood. Send off a sample to be sure.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Devils Lake, North Dakota
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    So what are the consequences and procedures with sacbrood?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Whitefield, Maine USA
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    Here's a pretty good page on sacbrood.

    http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/bees/4925.html

    It's a virus so there's no sense in an antibiotic treatment. There are some environmental considerations (and possible causes) and requeening is often a consideration but not a necessity. Basically it's a matter of removing the affected combs. After several months the infected brood is no longer hazardous but when it's fresh, it's pretty virulent. Old combs can be stored if they're not too infected or melted down if they're really loaded.

    George-
    Dulcius ex asperis

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Devils Lake, North Dakota
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    Thanks George....... another one for the bookmarks. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Looks like sac brood to me too. I saw some the other day in someones hive. The hive was doing really well and there were only a few here and there.

    It usually happens in the spring and clears up by itself.

    From my website:

    "Sacbrood. Caused by a virus usually called SBV (SacBrood Virus). Symptoms are the spotty brood patterns as other brood diseases but the larvae are in a sack with their heads raised. As in any brood disease, breaking the brood cycle may help. It usually goes away in late spring. Requeening sometimes helps also.

    "Breaking the Brood cycle. For all of the brood diseases this is helpful. To do this you simply have to put the hive in a position that there is no longer any brood. Especially no open brood. If you are planning to requeen anyway, just kill the old queen and wait a week and then destroy any queen cells. Don't go three or they will have raised a new queen. Wait another two weeks and then introduce a new queen (order the appropriate amount ahead of time). If you want to raise your own, just remove the old queen (put her in a cage or put her in a nuc somewhere in case they fail to raise a new one) and let them raise a queen. By the time the new queen is laying there will be no more brood. A hairclip catcher works for a cage. The attendant bees can get in and out and the queen cannot. " --Michael Bush

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tampa Bay Area and Port Charlotte, FL
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    Thank you all for your response. It seems pretty unanimous that it appears to be sacbrood.

    dcross - Thanks for the link to a free service for analyzing infected brood and bees. This is good to know.

    George - That is a great webpage on sacbrood. Since there was only one frame of comb showing signs of sacbrood, and only a small amount at that, I think I will just keep an eye on it and take action if it persist or gets worse. Last week, this brood box had 7 to 8 frames full of capped brood and I discovered the sacbrood yesterday when I was manipulating frames to help prevent swarming using the "Snelgrove Technique".
    I did this about 6 weeks ago to one of my strongest hives at that time and that hive has drawn comb and capped two medium supers full of honey since then and we really don't have a flow going yet, and I got another hive started to boot.
    June and July starts our Black Mangrove bloom and we have hundreds of acres of mangrove right across the waterway from us.

    Michael - Thanks for the confirmation. I respect you for your knowledge and willingness to help all us new beeks. I've spent many hours on your website in the past and forgot that you had a section on bee pests.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Western Pennsylvania
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    --It does not look like european foul brood, I've got some of that in my apiary.

    Here is an extreme rarity on these lists today,
    an honest beekeeper! [img]smile.gif[/img]

    George, If you are to survive on these lists, you will have to learn to describe disease as something you’ve seen before in
    ‘other peoples colonies'.

    You can borrow my car anytime! [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Best Wishes,

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Whitefield, Maine USA
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    6,624

    Post

    >Here is an extreme rarity on these lists today, an honest beekeeper!

    Aw Shucks. I lost all my blushes a long time ago Joe!

    I had my apiary inspected by Tony Jadczak this spring. He found european foulbrood in 4 colonies. I saw it, poked at it, smelled it. Smells like rotten fish.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,925

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    >>Looks like sac brood to me too. I saw some the other day in someones hive. The hive was doing really well and there were only a few here and there.

    >you will have to learn to describe disease as something you’ve seen before in
    ‘other peoples colonies'.

    I'll have to remember that. [img]smile.gif[/img] But in this case I have a lot of witnesses. [img]smile.gif[/img] It was at the bee club meeting last month and we all went through a hive together. I'd really never seen anything but pictures of it before that, but it was the classic picture of sac brood.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Western Pennsylvania
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    --I'd really never seen anything but pictures of it before that, but it was the classic picture of sac brood.

    Need also to look for dull grey larve in the early stages turning yellow (the highly infectious stage) then yellow with a dark head, brown then black. Capped brood will sometimes have a pin hole in them with a dead larvea inside.

    Looks to be but a very minor case, but it might be symptomatic of bees that are not very hygenic, I myself would requeen a colony if found to have sac brood, and not wait for it to clear. I would want to eliminate the genetics by requeening with another colony that does not have sacbrood symptoms.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    Western Pennsylvania
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    One more thing, [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Seems odd that sac brood would occur in such a strong hive as the poster describes, although I‘m sure it does happen. It is known that stress factors seem to influence the development of brood diseases like sac brood and chalk brood.

    Just wondering if the poster has provided proper ventilation. I would imagine that for Florida at this time of year the entrance should be wide open and roof tilted to provide adequate air circulation. If not, I would certinally consider providing ventilation.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tampa Bay Area and Port Charlotte, FL
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    An update to the sacbroud problem. I forgot to mention that I had removed the frame that had the sacbroud problem. Last Sunday, I did another inspection of the hive and found no signs of sacbroud. [img]smile.gif[/img] The ant's have clean up this frame, removing all the eggs and larva. Will it be OK to put this frame back in the hive? I will continue to monitor this hive closely. Again, thanks to all for your support.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tampa Bay Area and Port Charlotte, FL
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    >Just wondering if the poster has provided proper ventilation. Joe, I have SBBs on all my hives. I use migratory covers with "popcicle sticks" to leave a slight space between the cover and box.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    >Seems odd that sac brood would occur in such a strong hive as the poster describes

    It's exactly the senario I saw. It was a strong hive, wall to wall bees, lots of capped brood. A good laying pattern except a few pierced cappings with sacbrood inside.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Cleveland, Texas
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    Did anyone notice the Varroa mite on the bee in the bottom right of this shot?

    Varroa
    "The UNKNOWN, huh? That would be SNORBERT ZANGOX over in Waycross."

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Western Pennsylvania
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    --It's exactly the senario I saw. It was a strong hive, wall to wall bees, lots of capped brood. A good laying pattern except a few pierced cappings with sacbrood inside.

    Yes Mike, sacbrood can occure in strong colonies.

    Might me sugestive of non hygenic bees.

    [size="1"][ June 06, 2006, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ][/size]

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