Another OA question

**ninjai_fanatic** · 01-22-2006, 09:14 PM

Hi! I'd just like to ask you guys about this OA again.

I pretty much dribbled the recommended 5ml of solution in between each pair of frames- 25ml per deep, both deeps for a maximum per hive of 50ml of solution. If there were bees on the outside of the outer frame I dribbled a little down there too. I used 25ml syringes. I got the recipe from Bill Truesdell, a beekeeper near here in Maine. He gave a talk at a local beekeeper's association meeting last fall.

The solution should be warm but not hot, nor cold, but just right. It took a little practice to get good at dribblng evenly, but turned out to be pretty fast and easy. I did mine in early November, the temperature was around 40 F or so. The bees were active but not flying much.

It killed a few bees. Probably drowned them. Not a lot, maybe a dozen or so per hive, sometimes less. It killed a LOT of mites. I don't plan to do it again except as an emergency fall-back solution. If you're going to do it, give a search on this site for other suggestions.

George-

Is there any other way to do it aside from dribbling? Also, when's the best time to dribble the OA, - early morning, mid morning/noon, afternoon/late afternoon- or it doesn't matter?

You considering dribbling Dave?

The solution I used:

1 pint water
1 pint sugar
7 level teaspoons OA

>I wonder how many have tried the OA anhydrate

Dunno BB, the container I got (I had a hard time finding it) just says Oxalic Acid. Seemed to work..

George-

Is this solution all right even for hot places?
We live in the Philippines and we have several beeyards all over the country. One of our main apiary locations is in a place called Baguio where the temperature range is from about 55-66 degrees Fahrenheit while the rest of our beeyards are in hot and humid places like Manila/Pampanga where the temperatures range from 24-97 degrees F. Are there any precautions we need to take because of the temperatures/humidity?

Thanks in advance!

On a side note, that's a cool smiley up there with the shades. It looks almost like a bee, just need the antennae.

[size="1"][ January 22, 2006, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: ninjai_fanatic ][/size]

**BULLSEYE BILL** · 01-22-2006, 11:41 PM

A quick search for "OA Oxalic" came up with twenty different threads in the last fourteen months. There is a lot of information in the archives about OA and a lot of different opionions.

Yes is the short answer, it's called vaporizing. The most effective method is using the electric vaporizing unit sold by Heisler Technologies.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/

**Michael Bush** · 01-23-2006, 06:25 AM

**ninjai_fanatic** · 01-23-2006, 11:58 PM

Thank you both very much!

**Michael Bush** · 01-24-2006, 06:09 AM

I've only evaporated it. By all accounts I've heard it sounds like dribbling is much harder on the bees and a lot of the Europeans have moved past that to evaporation instead.

**Jim Fischer** · 01-24-2006, 07:59 AM

> By all accounts I've heard it sounds like
> dribbling is much harder on the bees and a lot
> of the Europeans have moved past that to
> evaporation instead.

Gee Mike, why not ask Marion Ellis at UNL, who
has done quite a bit of advance extension work
on OA in hopes that it might be approved as a
"legal" treatment, and has actually read the
European studies?

You've mentioned your opinion several times,
and I asked a few folks over in Europe if this
matched their view, as I doubted that anyone
currently looking at OA in a professional
capacity in the USA would ignore the current
state of knowledge in Europe, depsite your
comments.

You're likely hearing people who read ONLY the
Swiss study, which did find collateral damage.
(Not to worry, it seems clear that they had
both a formula that was too strong, and a dosage
that was too high, read below.)

A multi-country effort in Europe that was
undertaken between '96 and '99 found that:

The problematic side-effects were the result
of over-dosing.
The optimal formula was found to be 75 grams
of acid and 1 kg of sugar per 1 liter of water,
with the sugar being an important component
A dose of 4 ml per (Langstroth) frame fully
covered with bees. With this dose and the formula
mentioned above, there were as many bees in spring
as with untreated, uninfested control hives.

As far as popularity goes, the best estimates
the Europeans can make now is that about 10% to
15% of beekeepers who use OA vaporize, the other
85% to 90% use the dribble method.

So, I don't think that "the Europeans have moved
past that", I think that a small number have
invested in capital equipment, while the bulk of
beekeepers have simply learned to take more care
in formulation and application of the liquid.

Talk to Marion - he is sure to have copies of
the appropriate studies.

**Michael Bush** · 01-24-2006, 09:09 AM

>Gee Mike, why not ask Marion Ellis at UNL, who
has done quite a bit of advance extension work
on OA in hopes that it might be approved as a
"legal" treatment, and has actually read the
European studies?

I have had this conversation with Marion.

>You've mentioned your opinion several times,
and I asked a few folks over in Europe if this
matched their view, as I doubted that anyone
currently looking at OA in a professional
capacity in the USA would ignore the current
state of knowledge in Europe, depsite your
comments.

Trickling seems popular in some places, such as Finland and Sweden but even they seem to think that multiple treatments is hard on the bees. The people evaporating have not reported this. Evaporating seems to be popular in places like Germany.

>As far as popularity goes, the best estimates
the Europeans can make now is that about 10% to
15% of beekeepers who use OA vaporize, the other
85% to 90% use the dribble method.

That's sounds like about what I'm hearing in SOME countries. Others have moved on to evaporating

Axtman seems to have the most actual experience with this. Ask him.

But, it seems like the simplest, most effective, least damaging to the bees, and least labor intensive method is evaporating. You don't even have to open the hive.

Personally, although I think evaporating OA is the most effective TREATMENT I've seen, I've already moved on to no treatment. Of course, I think you should all go to small cell and quit breeding all those Varroa mites. [img]smile.gif[/img]

**Jim Fischer** · 01-24-2006, 12:56 PM

> I have had this conversation with Marion.

Given that you do not say that he is in agreement
with you, I'm forced to conclude that you and he
have different views, and that you have not
followed up with him to learn what he has found
to support his position.

> That's sounds like about what I'm hearing in SOME
> countries. Others have moved on to evaporating

Your use of the phrase "moved on" is what troubles
me, as it tends to indicate a viewpoint that I
cannot find factual support for.

My understanding is that you feel that vaporizing
is "superior" somehow, or "more advanced", when
the actual data seems to contradict the impression.

If nothing else, "10,000 Beekeepers can't all
be wrong", and people tend to vote with their
feet and wallets. So where is the European
rejection of "dribbling" and the consensus
among a significant percentage of European
beekeepers that "vaporizing" is better than
"dribbling"? No matter who I ask, no matter
where I look, I find the reverse to be a more
valid assessment.

**Michael Bush** · 01-24-2006, 01:25 PM

>> I have had this conversation with Marion.

>Given that you do not say that he is in agreement
with you, I'm forced to conclude that you and he
have different views

Correct.

> and that you have not
followed up with him to learn what he has found
to support his position.

I have, but not in the last few months. Last I heard he and Nick Nick Aliano were still trying to determine what if any damage the trickling does.

But with tens of thousands of beekeepers already using both methods I would consider those beekeepers experiences to hold more weight.

>Your use of the phrase "moved on" is what troubles
me, as it tends to indicate a viewpoint that I
cannot find factual support for.

Factual, as in reports on research that was done ten years ago, peer reviewed and finally made it to the journals? Or factual as in beekeepers are doing it today?

>My understanding is that you feel that vaporizing
is "superior" somehow, or "more advanced"

I do.

> when the actual data seems to contradict the impression.

Even in the countries where trickling is used the beekeepers I talk to say that trickling is hard on them and should not be done more than once in the fall. I haven't heard any beekeeper contradict that yet.

**Jim Fischer** · 01-24-2006, 01:53 PM

> Even in the countries where trickling is used the
> beekeepers I talk to say that trickling is hard
> on them and should not be done more than once in
> the fall. I haven't heard any beekeeper contradict
> that yet.

That's why Marion can help you better understand
the bigger picture, if you permit him to do so.

Regardless, I'm going to listen to the people
who have controls to compare to rather than
those who have no basis for comparison of
"better" with "worse".

I hope that you will consider presenting your
view as if if were something other than a
foregone conclusion, moreso when it is presently
shared by no one in the USA research and extension
community, who have done their homework, and
are working to gain actual approval for OA.

**Michael Bush** · 01-24-2006, 02:22 PM

>> By all accounts I've heard it sounds like
>> dribbling is much harder on the bees and a lot
>> of the Europeans have moved past that to
>> evaporation instead.

>I hope that you will consider presenting your
>view as if if were something other than a
>foregone conclusion

I don't think I presented it as a forgone conclusion. I presented it exactly as I meant to. By the accounts I hear from the European beekeepers, who have been doing it for years, dribbling OA is hard on the bees. They seem to think one OA dribbling treatment is fine but more will greatly shorten their life. Even the ones that are still dribbling have been saying this. This makes it not very practical during brood rearing since repeated treatments would be necessary to get the Varroa under control. Also, it seems to me that evaporation is much more consistent in filling every bit of a hive with vapor than dribbling is in contacting every bee.

> moreso when it is presently
>shared by no one in the USA research and extension
>community, who have done their homework, and
>are working to gain actual approval for OA.

Those in the USA research and extension community have been looking at OA for less than a year as far as I can tell. The Europeans, Russians in particular, have been using it since at least the late 70's. I've been using it some since three years ago. Do you want to listen to those who have been using it for 30 years or those who are still trying to get a general feel for how it works?

**Jim Fischer** · 01-24-2006, 04:12 PM

> Do you want to listen to those who have been
> using it for 30 years or those who are still
> trying to get a general feel for how it works?

Sadly, "30 years of beekeeping" can mean
repeating the same errors 30 times as often
as it means expertise born of experience.

The US folks are leaning very heavily on the
existing and very legit research done in Europe.
There is no reason to hold people like Marion in
contempt, there is reason to listen, ask questions,
and ask for copies of papers and data.

**Michael Bush** · 01-25-2006, 07:41 AM

>There is no reason to hold people like Marion in
contempt, there is reason to listen, ask questions,
and ask for copies of papers and data.

I have great respect for Marion and I like him very much as a person as well. I don't know why you think that I "hold people like Marion in contempt".

You and I obviously have different philosophies. You put more stock in research and I put more stock in actual beekeepers. That does not mean I don't like the bee scientists and that I don't want to hear what they have to say. All of them I've met and talked to were quite interesting and knowlegable.

**Jim Fischer** · 01-25-2006, 11:44 AM

> You put more stock in research and I put more
> stock in actual beekeepers.

No, you are making hay with a straw man again.

My point is that both the research and
the beekeeper consensus seem to be that dribbling
problems were a simple matter of overdosing, and
therefore both your statements are less-than
well informed, in that:

There are only a small number of people
vaporizing, and there is no general trend
or movement towards vaporizing
Those who have commented to you about
dribbling being "hard on the bees" were
(or still are) over-dosing in their OA mixes
and/or application.
That the studies already in the can, the
same ones that will be used to get EPA approval
for OA (Lord willing and the creek don't rise)
were so large as to be multi-country and
multi-year, and showed no significant
collateral damage at all from dribbling
when the beekeepers took care with their
measuring and mixing versus even control
colonies left untreated.

So, you aren't putting stock in "actual
beekeepers", as the bulk of OA users in the
EU apparently have NOT converted to vaporizing.

And you aren't putting stock in "research" either.

So, I don't see any basis at all for your
flat statements about "dribbling" versus
"vaporizing", which really does not matter at
all until someone goes out and burns themselves
with an "OA crack pipe" or inhales a little too
much of the fumes from vaporization.

Its all fun and games until we start taking
casualties, and I doubt OA will be approved in
the USA if we start taking beekeeper casualties
as a result of misinformation and misunderstanding.

The good news is that you can hear all of this
from Marion rather than me, so you don't have
to try to argue with me. But you do have to
pick someone to listen to, someday.

**Michael Bush** · 01-25-2006, 12:55 PM

>which really does not matter at
all until someone goes out and burns themselves
with an "OA crack pipe" or inhales a little too
much of the fumes from vaporization.

And this is the real motivation for dribbling.

**Axtmann** · 01-25-2006, 11:38 PM

Jim Fischer

YouÂ’re right when you say more beekeepers in Europe using liquid OA than the evaporation method. But that doesnÂ’t mean the dribbling method is better than the evaporation.

The OA vapor reaches the hair and the body of the bees and the liquid acid comes into the stomach of the bees when cleaning each other from the sticky acid mess.

As far as I know tests with both methods are made not only in Austria and Switzerland. Several bee institutes in Germany and Italy also tested the OA vapor and liquid.

If you are really interested contact

Chemisches und VererinÃ¤runtersuchungsamt Freiburg, Dr. Wolfgang Ritter

UniversitÃ¤t Hohenheim Landesanstalt fÃ¼r Bienenkunde, Dr. Peter Rosenkranz

I know there are people with a Dr. title and donÂ’t know whatÂ’s going on but this both are experts.

We can buy ready OA liquid mixture from bee suppliers Â“BienenwohlÂ” and it says use only one time.

This is not a mixture from a lazy beekeeper; it is a careful manufactured and registered OA product.

As everybody knows OA works best during brood free time there is the time of the winter bees and this bees must live for a few month. One liquid OA treatment can shorten the live of the bees up to 8 weeks and following treatments can kill the whole colony. That doesnÂ’t mean it kills the colony right away, it means the bees live not long enough to reach the next spring.

Compare to the liquid method the evaporation is relative new in Western Europe.
As far as I know mostly younger beekeepers trying the evaporation. Younger means not always younger on years!

I often hear the comment Â“why should I try new methods or why should I pay so much for an evaporator when the liquid will do the sameÂ”? I also here Â“where did you get the informationÂ’s I never heard about itÂ”.

There are so many different methods and possibilities to treat the colonies. All kind of acids and chemicals and everybody can decide which way he will go as long as it is a legal treatment.

Scientists in some counties working a little bit faster :&gt

) (or have more support from there government) to find new ways and other countries are a little bit behind. But it is not necessary to invent the wheel again.

**BULLSEYE BILL** · 01-26-2006, 04:26 PM

>The good news is that you can hear all of this
from Marion rather than me, so you don't have
to try to argue with me.

I will not argue with you.

Michael and I both heard Marion's speech on his testing liquid OA treatments at the KPHA meeting last spring. Marion stated that there was damage to the hive with the trickle method.

His next endevour was to test the vapor method, that should have happened last summer if he got around to it.

I sold him a plex cover crack pipe to try out and he was going to have the school buy the electronic vaporizer.

I am anxious to hear the results of last years testing. If anyone knows where that information is posted, I would like to read it.

**Dick Allen** · 01-26-2006, 08:55 PM

Thanks Bill, and now we know the rest of the story....

btw, your mailbox is full, i tried sending you a pm about a "business deal" and can't get through.

[size="1"][ January 26, 2006, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ][/size]

**Bumble Bee** · 01-27-2006, 02:59 AM

I know there are people with a Dr. title and donÂ’t know whatÂ’s going on but this both are experts.

Hello E. Axtmann,
declasing a person anonymous is easy, but it is dull and boring.
Perhaps you should review the validity of your articles? They are cited a lot!

Greetings Bumble Bee

**Jim Fischer** · 01-27-2006, 03:20 AM

> Marion stated that there was damage to the hive
> with the trickle method.

Well, the European studies said that collateral
damage was an indication of "overdosing", and
that at the dose and application rates they
suggested, there was no difference in net
collateral damage between OA-treated hives and
untreated control hives, so I'm not sure what
a statistical analysis of Marion's approach
would show, or if Marion might have perhaps
used a higher dose, or what. Bees die every
day no matter what you do. The key point is
was there a SIGNIFICANT and CONSISTENT trend
where treated hives "suffered"? That's a hard
question to answer, one more easily answered
by looking at the larger, longer study, which
would be the European one. Another trick would
be to compare Marion's results with the results
to the subset of European hives given the same
dose and application volume, and see if Marion's
data "fits the curve" of the European data or not.

(I am not a statistician, nor do I play one on TV.)

> YouÂ’re right when you say more beekeepers in
> Europe using liquid OA than the evaporation
> method.

All I was saying here was that Michael's claim
that Europeans (in general) has "moved to
vaporizing" (as if they all had, or even a
significant fraction had) was flat out wrong.

> But that doesnÂ’t mean the dribbling method is
> better than the evaporation.

Given the higher cost, higher physical risk to
the beekeeper, and somewhat expensive capital
equipment required inherent in vaporizing, the
vaporizing approach has to be MUCH better than
the dribbling approach to justify vaporizing
over dribbling. Dribbling may not be "better"
than evaporation/vaporizing, but is it WORSE?
My understanding is not if the dose is
carefully mixed and applied per the European
"specifications".

If there is any specific rebuttal or discussion
of the specific merits of one over the other
from Axtmann or Bumble Bee, I'd love to hear it,
as I am assuming that we at last have some
users of OA participating in the discussion with
multiple years of experience.

> Perhaps you should review the validity of your articles?

Uh oh - which specific articles are having their
validity questioned here? Can you be specific,
Bumble Bee? Danke schÃ¶n!!

(Gotta go give a lecture - back Tuesday, but
I am sure someone can keep this all going
without my involvement until then.)

Thread: Another OA question

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