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  1. #1

    Cool

    Hi! I'd just like to ask you guys about this OA again.
    I pretty much dribbled the recommended 5ml of solution in between each pair of frames- 25ml per deep, both deeps for a maximum per hive of 50ml of solution. If there were bees on the outside of the outer frame I dribbled a little down there too. I used 25ml syringes. I got the recipe from Bill Truesdell, a beekeeper near here in Maine. He gave a talk at a local beekeeper's association meeting last fall.

    The solution should be warm but not hot, nor cold, but just right. It took a little practice to get good at dribblng evenly, but turned out to be pretty fast and easy. I did mine in early November, the temperature was around 40 F or so. The bees were active but not flying much.

    It killed a few bees. Probably drowned them. Not a lot, maybe a dozen or so per hive, sometimes less. It killed a LOT of mites. I don't plan to do it again except as an emergency fall-back solution. If you're going to do it, give a search on this site for other suggestions.

    George-
    Is there any other way to do it aside from dribbling? Also, when's the best time to dribble the OA, - early morning, mid morning/noon, afternoon/late afternoon- or it doesn't matter?

    You considering dribbling Dave?

    The solution I used:

    1 pint water
    1 pint sugar
    7 level teaspoons OA

    >I wonder how many have tried the OA anhydrate

    Dunno BB, the container I got (I had a hard time finding it) just says Oxalic Acid. Seemed to work..

    George-
    Is this solution all right even for hot places?
    We live in the Philippines and we have several beeyards all over the country. One of our main apiary locations is in a place called Baguio where the temperature range is from about 55-66 degrees Fahrenheit while the rest of our beeyards are in hot and humid places like Manila/Pampanga where the temperatures range from 24-97 degrees F. Are there any precautions we need to take because of the temperatures/humidity?

    Thanks in advance!

    On a side note, that's a cool smiley up there with the shades. It looks almost like a bee, just need the antennae.

    [size="1"][ January 22, 2006, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: ninjai_fanatic ][/size]

  2. #2
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    A quick search for "OA Oxalic" came up with twenty different threads in the last fourteen months. There is a lot of information in the archives about OA and a lot of different opionions.

    Yes is the short answer, it's called vaporizing. The most effective method is using the electric vaporizing unit sold by Heisler Technologies.

    http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  3. #3
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    Just a few of the results on Disease and Pests for Oxalic Acid

    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...c;f=3;t=000303
    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=000284#000000
    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=000510#000007
    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=000486#000007
    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=000386#000011
    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=000382#000000
    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=000332#000000
    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=000280#000005
    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=000126#000001
    http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000280.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000126.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000468-2.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000468.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000298.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000469.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000468-3.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000058.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000449.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000103.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000293.html
    http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000468-2.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000468.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000298.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000469.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000468-3.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000058.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000449.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000103.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000293.html
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  4. #4

    Post

    Thank you both very much!

  5. #5
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    I've only evaporated it. By all accounts I've heard it sounds like dribbling is much harder on the bees and a lot of the Europeans have moved past that to evaporation instead.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #6
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    > By all accounts I've heard it sounds like
    > dribbling is much harder on the bees and a lot
    > of the Europeans have moved past that to
    > evaporation instead.

    Gee Mike, why not ask Marion Ellis at UNL, who
    has done quite a bit of advance extension work
    on OA in hopes that it might be approved as a
    "legal" treatment, and has actually read the
    European studies?

    You've mentioned your opinion several times,
    and I asked a few folks over in Europe if this
    matched their view, as I doubted that anyone
    currently looking at OA in a professional
    capacity in the USA would ignore the current
    state of knowledge in Europe, depsite your
    comments.

    You're likely hearing people who read ONLY the
    Swiss study, which did find collateral damage.
    (Not to worry, it seems clear that they had
    both a formula that was too strong, and a dosage
    that was too high, read below.)

    A multi-country effort in Europe that was
    undertaken between '96 and '99 found that:

    </font>
    1. The problematic side-effects were the result
      of over-dosing.</font>
    2. The optimal formula was found to be 75 grams
      of acid and 1 kg of sugar per 1 liter of water,
      with the sugar being an important component</font>
    3. A dose of 4 ml per (Langstroth) frame fully
      covered with bees. With this dose and the formula
      mentioned above, there were as many bees in spring
      as with untreated, uninfested control hives.</font>

    As far as popularity goes, the best estimates
    the Europeans can make now is that about 10% to
    15% of beekeepers who use OA vaporize, the other
    85% to 90% use the dribble method.

    So, I don't think that "the Europeans have moved
    past that", I think that a small number have
    invested in capital equipment, while the bulk of
    beekeepers have simply learned to take more care
    in formulation and application of the liquid.

    Talk to Marion - he is sure to have copies of
    the appropriate studies.

  7. #7
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    &gt;Gee Mike, why not ask Marion Ellis at UNL, who
    has done quite a bit of advance extension work
    on OA in hopes that it might be approved as a
    "legal" treatment, and has actually read the
    European studies?

    I have had this conversation with Marion.

    &gt;You've mentioned your opinion several times,
    and I asked a few folks over in Europe if this
    matched their view, as I doubted that anyone
    currently looking at OA in a professional
    capacity in the USA would ignore the current
    state of knowledge in Europe, depsite your
    comments.

    Trickling seems popular in some places, such as Finland and Sweden but even they seem to think that multiple treatments is hard on the bees. The people evaporating have not reported this. Evaporating seems to be popular in places like Germany.

    &gt;As far as popularity goes, the best estimates
    the Europeans can make now is that about 10% to
    15% of beekeepers who use OA vaporize, the other
    85% to 90% use the dribble method.

    That's sounds like about what I'm hearing in SOME countries. Others have moved on to evaporating

    Axtman seems to have the most actual experience with this. Ask him.

    But, it seems like the simplest, most effective, least damaging to the bees, and least labor intensive method is evaporating. You don't even have to open the hive.

    Personally, although I think evaporating OA is the most effective TREATMENT I've seen, I've already moved on to no treatment. Of course, I think you should all go to small cell and quit breeding all those Varroa mites. [img]smile.gif[/img]
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  8. #8
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    &gt; I have had this conversation with Marion.

    Given that you do not say that he is in agreement
    with you, I'm forced to conclude that you and he
    have different views, and that you have not
    followed up with him to learn what he has found
    to support his position.

    &gt; That's sounds like about what I'm hearing in SOME
    &gt; countries. Others have moved on to evaporating

    Your use of the phrase "moved on" is what troubles
    me, as it tends to indicate a viewpoint that I
    cannot find factual support for.

    My understanding is that you feel that vaporizing
    is "superior" somehow, or "more advanced", when
    the actual data seems to contradict the impression.

    If nothing else, "10,000 Beekeepers can't all
    be wrong", and people tend to vote with their
    feet and wallets. So where is the European
    rejection of "dribbling" and the consensus
    among a significant percentage of European
    beekeepers that "vaporizing" is better than
    "dribbling"? No matter who I ask, no matter
    where I look, I find the reverse to be a more
    valid assessment.

  9. #9
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    &gt;&gt; I have had this conversation with Marion.

    &gt;Given that you do not say that he is in agreement
    with you, I'm forced to conclude that you and he
    have different views

    Correct.

    &gt; and that you have not
    followed up with him to learn what he has found
    to support his position.

    I have, but not in the last few months. Last I heard he and Nick Nick Aliano were still trying to determine what if any damage the trickling does.

    But with tens of thousands of beekeepers already using both methods I would consider those beekeepers experiences to hold more weight.

    &gt;Your use of the phrase "moved on" is what troubles
    me, as it tends to indicate a viewpoint that I
    cannot find factual support for.

    Factual, as in reports on research that was done ten years ago, peer reviewed and finally made it to the journals? Or factual as in beekeepers are doing it today?

    &gt;My understanding is that you feel that vaporizing
    is "superior" somehow, or "more advanced"

    I do.

    &gt; when the actual data seems to contradict the impression.

    Even in the countries where trickling is used the beekeepers I talk to say that trickling is hard on them and should not be done more than once in the fall. I haven't heard any beekeeper contradict that yet.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #10
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    &gt; Even in the countries where trickling is used the
    &gt; beekeepers I talk to say that trickling is hard
    &gt; on them and should not be done more than once in
    &gt; the fall. I haven't heard any beekeeper contradict
    &gt; that yet.

    That's why Marion can help you better understand
    the bigger picture, if you permit him to do so.

    Regardless, I'm going to listen to the people
    who have controls to compare to rather than
    those who have no basis for comparison of
    "better" with "worse".

    I hope that you will consider presenting your
    view as if if were something other than a
    foregone conclusion, moreso when it is presently
    shared by no one in the USA research and extension
    community, who have done their homework, and
    are working to gain actual approval for OA.

  11. #11
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    &gt;&gt; By all accounts I've heard it sounds like
    &gt;&gt; dribbling is much harder on the bees and a lot
    &gt;&gt; of the Europeans have moved past that to
    &gt;&gt; evaporation instead.

    &gt;I hope that you will consider presenting your
    &gt;view as if if were something other than a
    &gt;foregone conclusion

    I don't think I presented it as a forgone conclusion. I presented it exactly as I meant to. By the accounts I hear from the European beekeepers, who have been doing it for years, dribbling OA is hard on the bees. They seem to think one OA dribbling treatment is fine but more will greatly shorten their life. Even the ones that are still dribbling have been saying this. This makes it not very practical during brood rearing since repeated treatments would be necessary to get the Varroa under control. Also, it seems to me that evaporation is much more consistent in filling every bit of a hive with vapor than dribbling is in contacting every bee.

    &gt; moreso when it is presently
    &gt;shared by no one in the USA research and extension
    &gt;community, who have done their homework, and
    &gt;are working to gain actual approval for OA.

    Those in the USA research and extension community have been looking at OA for less than a year as far as I can tell. The Europeans, Russians in particular, have been using it since at least the late 70's. I've been using it some since three years ago. Do you want to listen to those who have been using it for 30 years or those who are still trying to get a general feel for how it works?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #12
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    &gt; Do you want to listen to those who have been
    &gt; using it for 30 years or those who are still
    &gt; trying to get a general feel for how it works?

    Sadly, "30 years of beekeeping" can mean
    repeating the same errors 30 times as often
    as it means expertise born of experience.

    The US folks are leaning very heavily on the
    existing and very legit research done in Europe.
    There is no reason to hold people like Marion in
    contempt, there is reason to listen, ask questions,
    and ask for copies of papers and data.

  13. #13
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    &gt;There is no reason to hold people like Marion in
    contempt, there is reason to listen, ask questions,
    and ask for copies of papers and data.

    I have great respect for Marion and I like him very much as a person as well. I don't know why you think that I "hold people like Marion in contempt".

    You and I obviously have different philosophies. You put more stock in research and I put more stock in actual beekeepers. That does not mean I don't like the bee scientists and that I don't want to hear what they have to say. All of them I've met and talked to were quite interesting and knowlegable.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  14. #14
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    &gt; You put more stock in research and I put more
    &gt; stock in actual beekeepers.

    No, you are making hay with a straw man again.

    My point is that both the research and
    the beekeeper consensus seem to be that dribbling
    problems were a simple matter of overdosing, and
    therefore both your statements are less-than
    well informed, in that: </font>
    1. There are only a small number of people
      vaporizing, and there is no general trend
      or movement towards vaporizing</font>
    2. Those who have commented to you about
      dribbling being "hard on the bees" were
      (or still are) over-dosing in their OA mixes
      and/or application.</font>
    3. That the studies already in the can, the
      same ones that will be used to get EPA approval
      for OA (Lord willing and the creek don't rise)
      were so large as to be multi-country and
      multi-year, and showed no significant
      collateral damage at all from dribbling
      when the beekeepers took care with their
      measuring and mixing
      versus even control
      colonies left untreated.</font>

    So, you aren't putting stock in "actual
    beekeepers", as the bulk of OA users in the
    EU apparently have NOT converted to vaporizing.

    And you aren't putting stock in "research" either.

    So, I don't see any basis at all for your
    flat statements about "dribbling" versus
    "vaporizing", which really does not matter at
    all until someone goes out and burns themselves
    with an "OA crack pipe" or inhales a little too
    much of the fumes from vaporization.

    Its all fun and games until we start taking
    casualties, and I doubt OA will be approved in
    the USA if we start taking beekeeper casualties
    as a result of misinformation and misunderstanding.

    The good news is that you can hear all of this
    from Marion rather than me, so you don't have
    to try to argue with me. But you do have to
    pick someone to listen to, someday.

  15. #15
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    &gt;which really does not matter at
    all until someone goes out and burns themselves
    with an "OA crack pipe" or inhales a little too
    much of the fumes from vaporization.

    And this is the real motivation for dribbling.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  16. #16
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    Jim Fischer

    You’re right when you say more beekeepers in Europe using liquid OA than the evaporation method. But that doesn’t mean the dribbling method is better than the evaporation.

    The OA vapor reaches the hair and the body of the bees and the liquid acid comes into the stomach of the bees when cleaning each other from the sticky acid mess.

    As far as I know tests with both methods are made not only in Austria and Switzerland. Several bee institutes in Germany and Italy also tested the OA vapor and liquid.

    If you are really interested contact

    Chemisches und Vererinäruntersuchungsamt Freiburg, Dr. Wolfgang Ritter



    Universität Hohenheim Landesanstalt für Bienenkunde, Dr. Peter Rosenkranz

    I know there are people with a Dr. title and don’t know what’s going on but this both are experts.

    We can buy ready OA liquid mixture from bee suppliers “Bienenwohl” and it says use only one time.

    This is not a mixture from a lazy beekeeper; it is a careful manufactured and registered OA product.

    As everybody knows OA works best during brood free time there is the time of the winter bees and this bees must live for a few month. One liquid OA treatment can shorten the live of the bees up to 8 weeks and following treatments can kill the whole colony. That doesn’t mean it kills the colony right away, it means the bees live not long enough to reach the next spring.

    Compare to the liquid method the evaporation is relative new in Western Europe.
    As far as I know mostly younger beekeepers trying the evaporation. Younger means not always younger on years!

    I often hear the comment “why should I try new methods or why should I pay so much for an evaporator when the liquid will do the same”? I also here “where did you get the information’s I never heard about it”.

    There are so many different methods and possibilities to treat the colonies. All kind of acids and chemicals and everybody can decide which way he will go as long as it is a legal treatment.

    Scientists in some counties working a little bit faster :&gt) (or have more support from there government) to find new ways and other countries are a little bit behind. But it is not necessary to invent the wheel again.

  17. #17
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    &gt;The good news is that you can hear all of this
    from Marion rather than me, so you don't have
    to try to argue with me.

    I will not argue with you.

    Michael and I both heard Marion's speech on his testing liquid OA treatments at the KPHA meeting last spring. Marion stated that there was damage to the hive with the trickle method.

    His next endevour was to test the vapor method, that should have happened last summer if he got around to it.

    I sold him a plex cover crack pipe to try out and he was going to have the school buy the electronic vaporizer.

    I am anxious to hear the results of last years testing. If anyone knows where that information is posted, I would like to read it.
    Bullseye Bill in The Scenic Flint Hills , KS
    www.myspace.com/dukewilliam

  18. #18
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    Thanks Bill, and now we know the rest of the story....

    btw, your mailbox is full, i tried sending you a pm about a "business deal" and can't get through.

    [size="1"][ January 26, 2006, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ][/size]

  19. #19
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    I know there are people with a Dr. title and don’t know what’s going on but this both are experts.
    Hello E. Axtmann,
    declasing a person anonymous is easy, but it is dull and boring.
    Perhaps you should review the validity of your articles? They are cited a lot!

    Greetings Bumble Bee

  20. #20
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    &gt; Marion stated that there was damage to the hive
    &gt; with the trickle method.

    Well, the European studies said that collateral
    damage was an indication of "overdosing", and
    that at the dose and application rates they
    suggested, there was no difference in net
    collateral damage between OA-treated hives and
    untreated control hives, so I'm not sure what
    a statistical analysis of Marion's approach
    would show, or if Marion might have perhaps
    used a higher dose, or what. Bees die every
    day no matter what you do. The key point is
    was there a SIGNIFICANT and CONSISTENT trend
    where treated hives "suffered"? That's a hard
    question to answer, one more easily answered
    by looking at the larger, longer study, which
    would be the European one. Another trick would
    be to compare Marion's results with the results
    to the subset of European hives given the same
    dose and application volume, and see if Marion's
    data "fits the curve" of the European data or not.

    (I am not a statistician, nor do I play one on TV.)

    &gt; You’re right when you say more beekeepers in
    &gt; Europe using liquid OA than the evaporation
    &gt; method.

    All I was saying here was that Michael's claim
    that Europeans (in general) has "moved to
    vaporizing" (as if they all had, or even a
    significant fraction had) was flat out wrong.

    &gt; But that doesn’t mean the dribbling method is
    &gt; better than the evaporation.

    Given the higher cost, higher physical risk to
    the beekeeper, and somewhat expensive capital
    equipment required inherent in vaporizing, the
    vaporizing approach has to be MUCH better than
    the dribbling approach to justify vaporizing
    over dribbling. Dribbling may not be "better"
    than evaporation/vaporizing, but is it WORSE?
    My understanding is not if the dose is
    carefully mixed and applied
    per the European
    "specifications".

    If there is any specific rebuttal or discussion
    of the specific merits of one over the other
    from Axtmann or Bumble Bee, I'd love to hear it,
    as I am assuming that we at last have some
    users of OA participating in the discussion with
    multiple years of experience.

    &gt; Perhaps you should review the validity of your articles?

    Uh oh - which specific articles are having their
    validity questioned here? Can you be specific,
    Bumble Bee? Danke schön!!

    (Gotta go give a lecture - back Tuesday, but
    I am sure someone can keep this all going
    without my involvement until then.)

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