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  1. #21
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    I think the above idea I posted is MB's cut-down split idea.

  2. #22
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    I think it is. The cut-down split creates the broodless condition which breaks the brood cycle of the mites, and forces them all to go phoretic. By this you obtain a benefit, but the dutch method traps the little phoretic suckers in prepared drone combs. By this you obtain a HUGE benefit. By combining the cut-down split with the dutch drone comb removal....
    Dulcius ex asperis

  3. #23
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    It isn't that complicated; it just reads that way. The manipulations are done a week apart, so there's still plenty of time in between to get into an argument with someone on BeeSource.

    [size="1"][ January 12, 2006, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ][/size]

  4. #24
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    >It isn't that complicated; it just reads that way.

    After reading over the procedure more, I have to agree Dick. It's really rather elegant in it's simplicity in the way it exploits the mite's life cycle and brood rearing preferences. I like elegant.

    I didn't read through the New Zealand manual last night because it's still as yet unprinted and likely to remain that way and I don't take my laptop to bed with me often.. the wife disapproves of that [img]smile.gif[/img] I did print out the Dutch version however which interestingly, Barry Birkey is credited with having helped translate. I'd love to hear what he has to say about it.

    Anyways.. I digress. I read over the dutch description and it appears to be a lot more flexible than the rigid timeline and manipulations suggest. You have to understand what's happening and make some decisions along the way, you're not just performing moves by rote. You have options, especially in regard queen rearing if or when you make the split. Also, it's as much a swarm control measure as anything.

    You're going to have to address these issues (swarming, making increase, requeening) in any case. The idea is to incorporate a few simple procedures into your normal management regimen to get rid of your varroa.

    As in a lot of other beekeeping manipulations, timing is everything. If you can incorporate a cut-down split into the formula, and I see no reason why you can't, what could be better? You're making increase, more honey, and less mites.

    What's wrong with this picture?

    >so there's still plenty of time in between to get into an argument with someone on BeeSource.

    Certainly.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  5. #25
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    >I think the above idea I posted is MB's cut-down split idea.

    Just to clarify, the cut down split is not MY idea. It was invented at least a half a century before I was born. I just mention it from time to time. I have some books from the late 1800's that describe it.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #26
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    What is a cut-down split?

    Jean-Marc

  7. #27
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    I will quote Michael "I did not invent the cutdown split" Bush. From another thread:

    A cut down split. This is very timing cricical. It should be done shortly before the main honey flow. The purpose is to maximize the foraging population while minimizing swarming. There are variations on this, but basically the idea is to put almost all the open brood, honey and pollen and the queen in a new hive while leaving all the capped brood, some of the honey and a frame of eggs with the old hive. The new hive won't swarm because it doesn't have a workforce (which all returns to the old hive). The old hive won't swarm because it doesn't have a queen or any open brood. It will take at least six weeks for them to raise a queen and get a decent brood nest going. Meantime, you still get a lot of production (possibly a lot MORE production) from the old hive because they are not busy caring for brood. You get the old hive requeened and you get a split. Another variation is to leave the queen with the old hive and take ALL the open brood out. They won't swarm right away because the open brood is gone.
    [size="1"][ January 12, 2006, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ][/size]
    Dulcius ex asperis

  8. #28
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    It's amazing how everyone is stumbling over their own feet not to take credit for anything . Wonder why :confused: .
    "I reject your reality, and substitute my own." Adam Savage

  9. #29
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    Because if I don't someone will accuse me of TRYING to take credit for it. But in beekeeping, "there is nothing new under the sun".
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #30
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    Well, I was going over the dutch method referred to above and the principles of a cutdown split with an eye toward figuring out how to combine them into one procedure when I happened to compare the dutch method with that described in the New Zealand handbook. They're not the same [img]smile.gif[/img]

    So, humor me here. They're close in principle, probably not a problem for most people, but for someone like me whose never done a split at all, let alone one of these 3-way mite-trapping babies, it's a stumbling block. I shall recover!

    The actual manipulations, what frame goes in what hive and when, and the timing and method of the split are different, or different enough to have me scratching my head a bit. It may be the NZ method is based loosely on the Dutch method, but refined somewhat. The Dutch method provides some leeway in what you do and when. If you're so inclined, read the NZ method in the first post of this thread and compare it with the time table on page 8 of the dutch method available here:

    http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html

    So. The basic elements are the same. You move as many of the mites from hive A to hive B by transferring the capped brood and trap the remaining mites with drone comb; do the same trapping bit in hive B, then transfer some mite-free bees in hive B, with the queen and the open brood into a 3rd hive C (the split), leaving a frame of eggs for so hive B can raise a queen. Recall that hive B before the split has all it's bees, and all the capped brood from hive A. It should be plenty strong enough to split after 2-3 weeks.

    So you start with 2 mite-infested hives and end up with 3 hives from which 90% or better of the mites have been removed.

    The idea of combining this manipulation with a cutdown split is compelling, and I think from what I've read about them both, quite doable. It's again, a matter of timing and maneuvering most of the field force into one or more hives and the nurse bees into another. Does anyone have any suggestions about how this might best be accomplished?

    Or... might it be simpler to think about a cutdown split and how to incorporate effective mite trapping via drone combs into it?
    Dulcius ex asperis

  11. #31
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    "It's again, a matter of timing and maneuvering most of the field force into one or more hives and the nurse bees into another. Does anyone have any suggestions about how this might best be accomplished?"

    I suggested this in another thread about breaking the brood cycle for varroa control: Move the parent hive (A) about 40 or 50 feet from it's current location. Replace it with another hive (B) containing foundation or drawn comb (without brood) at the original location of hive A. The field force will return to the old location. You now have the field force and house bees in separate hives. I would go ahead and blast hive B with OA vapor to kill off as many phoretic mites as possible and replace the queen (taken from hive A or a new queen). Hive A would be kept queenless until all brood has emerged; then blast with OA to kill phoretic mites and combine with hive B for the honey flow.
    Triangle Bees

  12. #32
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    The concept of a cut down is to minimize the brood boxes (removing all but one) minimize the brood to care for (by removing the open brood) and maximize the field force (by either shaking some of the bees from the frames for the split off or just letting the drift back to the main hive. There are other variations on where to put the queen. You can either put a new young queen in the old hive or let it raise it's own queen. Or, if you really don't want a split, you can do like Jim suggested and just confine the queen two weeks or so before the flow to cut down on the brood.

    One other aspect that the old timers used to do, but may not be a good idea if you feed chemicals and syrup, is to crowd them down to the bottom box with very little brood and lots of honey in the brood box. Then to make room for the queen to lay, they have to move the honey up. This causes them to start making comb to have somewhere to store it. Then they fill the comb with more of the honey from the brood nest. Of course, if the honey from the brood nest isn't considered safe to eat, it's not going to get any safer just because the bees moved it up.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  13. #33
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    Well db, that sounds like a lot of work to go through just to end up recombining the splits. Why not just cage the queen for a few weeks and get it over with? You'll end up with a box full of phoretic mites, without all the work.

    The goal of this exercise is to make increase AND get rid of the mites without a chemical treatment AND configure the hives so as to maximize honey production by arranging for a lot of field bees in one or more boxes without a lot of brood to take care of and a good number of nurse bees in another box to raise a queen and care for all that brood. This manipulation would also short circuit the swarming impulse. Is this too much to ask? Hehe..

    Perhaps I am asking for too much, but I don't think so. At least, it's worth discussing and interesting to consider the possibilties. The dutch/NZ method of splitting for varroa control makes 3 hives out of 2 AND gets rid of the mites. I'm going to be trying this method in any case.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  14. #34
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    Well George, you asked for suggestions about how to get the field force into one or more hives separate from the nurse bees. I suggested the simplest possible method of achieving that objective. If you want to use the dutch/NZ method and manipulate 3 hives because that's less work than manipulating 2 hives, that's fine. Btw, you're welcome.
    Triangle Bees

  15. #35
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    Well yes db I did, but you sorta took my question out of the context of this thread which is "splitting for varroa control". Your suggestion is valid, it's not really what I'm after. I want to make increase and get rid of the mites without chemicals. Even OA, which I used last year. Ending up with field bees in one hive and nurse bees in another is the cutdown split part of the equation which would be nice, but not necessary. I was just thinking, if a cutdown split works, and a dutch/NZ split for varroa control works, why not combine the 2?

    Your procedure sounds sorta like a shook swarm.

    And Thank you btw, post humorously. How rude of me [img]smile.gif[/img]
    Dulcius ex asperis

  16. #36
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    Is this the method that we are discussing here? If not, it might be another option for us hobbiests.

    http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html

    Waya
    WayaCoyote

  17. #37
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    That's it Waya. It is for lack of a better name the "dutch" method as used within the context of this thread, and it is similar to the New Zealand method I quoted at the beginning. The New Zealand method refers to work done by Dutch researchers and I assume, because of the similarities of the two methods, that the above link is that referred to. The NZ method is perhaps a bit more refined, it's been pared down to 5 steps taken over 5 weeks. The dutch method offers several minor variations on the theme.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  18. #38
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    What??? the Dutch method? the New Zealand method done by Dutch??

    Next you're going to tell me that they speak American in Great Britain or something crazy like that. i'm still trying to figure out Canada having a Fourth of July and France copying our new years holiday... Now the Dutch are taking over NZ and South America is speaking spanish.... when will it end???

    Be it as it may, thanks for clearing it up. I think I'm with you a bit.

    Any write ups on the NZ method with the Dutch accent so i can compare that to the Dutch method?

    Waya
    WayaCoyote

  19. #39
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    Waya, d00d! <slap!> Snap out of it! <slap!> Don't make this any harder than it already is! And pace yourself, it's only mid-January! You're cracker-dog now, if you don't get a grip you'll be pizzle-end up in another month! And then what'll you do? Forget that, what will WE do?

    But maybe... you're the one to help finger this out. I originally posted the NZ method of splitting for varroa control to get some feed back and comments, hopefully from people that have tried it. So far nobody admits to having tried it, and the general concensus has been that it appears complicated. Then Michael suggested it might be able to be combined with a cutdown split.... I'd already pondered that a bit, but Michael's suggestion really got me to thinking but I've been a tad bit busy the past few weeks to do much more than keep it warm on a back burner.

    So what do you think of all this?
    Dulcius ex asperis

  20. #40
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    >Any write ups on the NZ method with the Dutch accent

    Oh. Sorry. Read posto-numero-uno:

    http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubb...3;t=000617;p=1
    Dulcius ex asperis

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