FDA Approves TYLAN

[Jim Fischer]

>> IPM seemed "impractical" to all of agriculture
>> at first

> Simple fact Jim, most of these organic controls
> are impractical solely due to the time involved
> in administration of the treatment.

Your misconstruing of "Integrated Pest
Management" as meaning (or having anything
to do with) "organic controls" is the essential
problem. You clearly haven't listened to your
own extension people, or read much of what
has been written about IPM, as you persist in
thinking that "IPM" is anything more than
diagnosing, so that treatments (regardless of
what sort of treatment is chosen) can be
appropriate. Its all about investing in
monitoring and record-keeping, and spending
the time and money to analyze the data.

But it is easier and cheaper to apply antibiotics
to each and every hive twice a year, regardless
of need than it is to come up with a more creative
approach that would entail something less than
100% treatment twice a year.

Its also easier and cheaper to melt comb and
recycle frames than to stop and think and realize
that the frames themselves might need some level
of decontamination before they go back into
another hive. Antibiotics treat the bees, but
don't kill spores in the nooks and crannies of
frames, do they?

Change your practices, and you'll find less AFB.
It might cut into your profits over the short
term, but the good news is that you will be able
to remain in business at all over the long term.

[Aspera]

Ian,

I'm not saying that its wrong for you to use antibiotics in the face of an outbreak. And it is true that your business may be hurt by people with poor management practices. Neither of these statements mean that large operations can't benefit from sanitizing equipment, comb culling, hygienic bees, good feeding practices etc. I think that Bob Harrison is familiar with large scale beekeeping and he swears by comb culling as a way to increase productivity. I'm just trying to gently suggest that you look at Tylosin with a jaundiced eye. Its an expensive, incomplete and temporary solution to a permanent problem. Sure, its great as a 'stop-gap' measure, but so was DDT for malaria control, and Baytril in the poultry industry. Ultimately the beekeeping community will be forced into finding other solutions, so why not start looking now?

[dickm]

Ian wrote

>>>But tell me what IPM I can use to prevent the outside infection of AFB in my hives?<<<

Life's a b***h and then you die. Sorry Ian but there isn't anything but... Hygienic bees will pull out infected larva before it creates spores. Would you do this [requeen with hygienic stock] if there were another way?

>>> I as a beekeeper will continue to use these products as a precautionary measure to protect my hives from outside infection of AFB.<<<

Does this mean you will use Tylan BEFORE you get the disease?

Joel said:
>>>I have hives in a multitude of conditions for a variety of reasons ranging from weak to strong<<<

It seems to me that if you have this much AFB you would be better off to do something else. [Shake all the bees out and put them on new equipment, for instance].
It does sound like you and others are going to go right past the label and use Tylan just in case.

I knew it would happen, but I'm not going to get off the subject. It shows up what the real problem is: the need for another quick fix. BTW this cr*ap gets into the honey with big feet. There will be a big story in the press about it some day and the price of honey will go down permanently.

It seems to me that we should use the predictably brief hiatus that Tylan provides to develop AFB resistant stock.

Dickm

[Ian]

>>Does this mean you will use Tylan BEFORE you get the disease?


I dont know. I have to learn more about the substance, but from what I have been hearing form our head bee man, is that it controls AFB same if not better than Oxytet, and is much eaier on the bees. BUT has a much longer residue hold in the honey than Oxytet.

Its the longer residue that has got me scared of using it. Like you say dickm, just wait til it shows up in our sold honey!!

It is the longer residue that throws a red flag, and has gotten me wondering if allowing unprescribed use of this product is wise. Under a chiefs supervision would be better, added controls, but I guess they are termendously overworked as it is,..?

Dickm, Aspera, my comments were on the use of Oxtytet, not Tylan. But at the same time, we cant overlook the results Tylan can offer the beekeeping community.

>>Hygienic bees will pull out infected larva before it creates spores. Would you do this [requeen with hygienic stock] if there were another way?

Sorry dickm, I dont understand what you are asking. But I take point, hygenic stock is a direction to be taken seriously. As I am bringing ,or trying to bring sutch traits into my bees. And now I am getting more confused about IPM, and what it actually means.

Jim, perhaps I dont have a good enough grasp on the concept of IPM to comment on it further. From your reply, it sounds that my understanding of IPM is focused off my understanding of it. Yet many other relateing comment exagerate on my understanding of it.??

But to comment on your statement,
>>Its all about investing in
monitoring and record-keeping, and spending
the time and money to analyze the data.

I think it is very important to know your pest, populations, and effects on your colonies.
Wheather it be by the hive, yard, or operation( in the veiw of cheif athourities) identifying and targeting the pest is everyones objective.

If IPM is in short all about record-keeping, and analyzing data, then I agree, it is a very important step in combating our pests. But its only one step in the battle, and regardless how much money and time you devote to it, its still the following steps that actually show the results.


>>But it is easier and cheaper to apply antibiotics
to each and every hive twice a year, regardless
of need than it is to come up with a more creative
approach that would entail something less than
100% treatment twice a year.

>>Change your practices, and you'll find less AFB.

Good advice. I agree.

I was making the obvious point that the useage of Oxytet in my operation was to help prevent the outside infection of my hives to AFB.
I do particiapate in a yearly comb cull, because not only do I believe it will help my AFB situation in my operation, I believe the bee do better on fresher comb.

Now tell me how comb culling, or anyother IPM will prevent the infection of AFB from outside sources.

[Aspera]

IPM can't prevent infection from outside sources, of course. Still, with large scale agriculture its pretty easy to stop believing in germ theory altogether. The bug is *always* there, just waiting for its opportunity to cause disease. The trick is to sucker punch the opportunity by creating an environment that is not pest friendly.

[Joel]

{It seems to me that if you have this much AFB you would be better off to do something else. [Shake all the bees out and put them on new equipment, for instance].
It does sound like you and others are going to go right past the label and use Tylan just in case.}

DickM Re read my post and please highlight where I said any, many or all my hives have AFB. My Hives don't have AFB. While your at it why don't you highlight the section inmy post that makes any inferrence to your accusation that I "and others are going to go right past the label instructions." I have invested heavily ($2,000 in the past 3 yrs on comb and foundation, another $600 for 2006)) in the VanEatons/Goodwins "Control of AFB without the use of drugs" out of their New Zealand studies. Incidentally,just for the record, I don't treat AFB hives with anything, I burn the combs and guess what, shake the bees on new foundation as indicated in the extnesive study I go by. But thanks for the advice. Once you do rearead it I hope it is clear that what I am saying is this--

It makes no sense to treat a strong hive with the same dosage of chemotheraputic agent as you do a medium or weak hive. Whether you treat 3 or 300 for control or prevention. Most agricultural antibiotics are adminstered by weight. At least one PHD , Delaplane, is of the opinion that the reccommended dosage of TM was sublethal to AFB which contributed to the current resistance. I'm hoping that's not the case with Tylan.

Dick by we I'm curious how much money you spent over the past couple of years developing AFB Hygenic queens. Is we you, or is it everyone else. If you saw my post on winter losses you know I let 18 hives in one yard die by not treating them to develop better stock to breed from. I've invested another $400.00 in hyngenic stock this spring to breed with the survivors next spring. Now those 18 hives represent about $6500 in lost income for next season + the replacement cost of the hives. That puts me over the $10,000 investment mark, Dickm. I think I'm doing my share! I'm a little curious how much "we" are all spending to find a solution to this problem. I hope whoever "we" is finds a quick solution to a problem that we've been breeding for since bees were wiped out by the big AFB epidemic 60 yrs ago when there was no kind of fix at all much less a quick one.

I have everthing to loose if honey gets a bad name, at my hand or anyone elses. That's the soul of my business. I would suggest it looks considerably different for Ian, who I supect makes at least part of his living on bees, as do I, then someone who if their bees die from AFB their families still get to live inside and eat. I walk my talk thank-you very much.

{Life's a b***h and then you die}

I have to say I'm really disappointed, I know Ian is big enough he'll overlook your accusations and rudeness and look for what you meant to say. Your concerned about the industry! News Flash, we all are, that's why we're here!

[size="1"][ January 09, 2006, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Joel ][/size]

[Dick Allen]

>In treatment I usually treat problems as a yard not as a hive. I don't know how though if we find AFB in a hive in April and May we can destroy the infected combs, treat the yard and be confident with a 4 month life the tylosin won't show up in out honey supers? That may (or may not)be Marks point. I would assume fall prophalactic treatement would be worthwhile, especially in the south where brood is present through out most of the year.

Joel your post from Dec. 31, I think, could be intrepreted by some that you had foulbrood and might be intending to treat hives that didn't show signs of AFB. Just my $0.02 on the matter.

[dickm]

Ian,
Joel says I insulted you. If I did I apologize. My question would have been clearer as a statement. "I don't think you and other commercial guys would rely on breeding until the last gun was fired." It's sort of like we won't develop energy savings until gas goes to $5 a gallon.
When you asked how you could prevent AFB infiltration from neighboring hives and I said,
"That's tough!" ... what I meant was that it's a source of infection that's always going to be there. It's a cost of doing business. Maybe we shouldn't be able to handle that with drugs. A lot of people have stopped using Oxytet every year. Did you read the study that was done on the hives at almonds last year? They found AHB in something like 1/3 of the hives. I think that you already have enough spores in your hives that the ones that come from outside will be the smallest part of the problem. The answer lies in having colonies that are resistant. They actually live with the spores and if the disease erupts, they clean it out.

Joel,
Sorry you took offense. I'm aware of what you are doing and I applaud. I think we agree more than most about most things. You set up a hypothetical and I responded. I didn't think your real hives were involved at all so I wasn't being accusatory. [in the hypothetical] you posited several hive with AFB and how to treat them. [In the hypothetical]I read into that a sort of broadcast sowing of Tylan. OK so I was overreaching and you don't belong with those "others" that will ignore the label and use Tylan the same way they used Terra. You are right and I was [quite]wrong to lump you.

You know and I know that off label use is going to happen just as surely as we are sitting here at the computer. I hate to see the industry continue on this path. I don't have all the answers but have listened to Marla Spivak and Jennifer Berry give work shops on hygienic bees. It seems to be the way to go.

What have I invested? I got back into beekeeping 5 years ago and have worked up to 20 hives. They have never been treated with anything but FGMO and O/a. The FGMO is history. I'd be embarrassed to admit how many have died, usually in the winter. I don't have to make a living from them so I can afford losses. I may be beginning to get a handle on disease but it's been tough. I have north of $20,000 invested, over the years. It's all been an experiment in non-drug disease control.

I bought 11 packages of Minnesota Hygienics last year. Have you ever tried them?


Dickm

[Joel]

{I think, could be intrepreted by some}

Dick Allen, thanks I guess I could see that interpretation ( if I look really hard). I know DickM is pretty balanced. I get a little prickly when folks start to make public statments about what they assume I will or won't do and it's effect on the industry as a whole(as well as my reputation and my business). I work pretty hard to do the right thing.

DickM I have ordered 25 MH queens this year. How's your stock surviving in the north. I have High hopes to continue improving our stock. It is a long expensive road. Rob Harrison has been working dilingently on this for decades without reaching the end. I don't think guys like Ian and I will be the ones that bring down the industry. If we step outside the rules, and virtually every commmerical beekeper will have to at some point to survive, we will not do it at the risk of our (our anyone elses)lively hood. There is a ton of unapproved stuff being used out their including lyncomycin, sulpha drugs and who knows what else. I am aware there are beekeepers going to public meetings and telling other beekeepers to use calf dust on their bottom boards to kill beetles. I'm concerned too, it's just a matter of time if thing continue to deteriorate.

As far as contamination here's the poop from Beltsville for those who didn't see it in my previous post. I have some additional infor to post about breakdown time in syrup etc. that I will post when I get finished.

From Pettis & Gang studies:
In surplus honey from colonies treated with a total of 600 mg, tylosin concentrations declined from an average of 1.31 ppm in honey sampled during the treatment period to 0.16 ppm three weeks after the last treatment. Exposure to tylosin from honey is significantly less than from other agricultural products, based on U.S. per capita consumption and an established tolerance of 0.2 ppm.

In light of this, I think we may be overeacting.

[size="1"][ January 10, 2006, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Joel ][/size]

[Ian]

>> Joel says I insulted you. If I did I apologize.


I dont take offense unless I get slaged. But I dont get slagged too often [img]smile.gif[/img]

Grudges just get in the way of a good conversation. How would I learn anything here if I didnt listen to everyones opinion.?


>>I have to say I'm really disappointed, I know Ian is big enough he'll overlook your accusations and rudeness and look for what you meant to say.

Thanks for taking my back Joel!! [img]smile.gif[/img]


>>The answer lies in having colonies that are resistant.

I agree. Breading for tolerant trait is the key to the future!

Its the stronges hives that will crash first in a yard, or near a yard infested with AFB. Same principle as varroa infestation from outside sources. The stronge hives are the most active on robbing out other hives.

[Ian]

>>The bug is *always* there,

I dont really know if I agree with that.


If the bug was always there, you would think that failing hives, due to queen problem or mites ect, would always fall to this disease as the hive weakened. But thats not the case.
Seems to me, from people I have talked to who have been through an infestation, make out as if it came into thier operation. It was so invasive that it distroyed everything to the point where they had to shake everything into new equipment, to get rid of the diesease out of their operation.
This fellow hasnt seen it sence. This fellow isnt the one I was talking of earlier,

That tells me that the bug is spread,

[dickm]

Joel,

>>How's your stock surviving in the north. I have High hopes to continue improving our stock.<<

Of the 11 packages from La, 3 queens never took off or died early. I requeened but don't think they will winter. I was a tough dry summer. A 4th queen was the 13% africanized I've written about on other posts. I had to kill the colony. I think I have 5/6 that seem to be wintering. Wintering here is the big screen. The rest are carnies and Italians. I intend to breed from the survivors this year.

We actually aren't that far apart, at least in summer. Perhaps we'll meet some day. In a day or so I'm leaving to do some beekeeping "in the trenches," helping a Fl 'keeper do a few hundred splits and move a thousand hives. I've done this before. I'll know more of what I'm talking about when I get back. This is how I get a whiff of the crap that goes on in commercial beekeeping.

Dickm