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  1. #21
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    {It's not for use before you get the disease.}

    Since it only kills Foulbrood in the vegatative state(correct?) it seems useless. Once you've developed and noticed the disease you have (as Carl Sagan would say) "Billions and Billions", of spores in frames and stored honey starting a viciouls cycle of infected equipment that masks the disease until resistance develops and you get the privilage of watching a meltdown.

    [size="1"][ December 31, 2005, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Joel ][/size]

  2. #22
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    It is my understanding, having not read the label myself(anybody have one?) that it (the label) reads "for the cure of AFB". Discussions here with other beekeepers, regulators and extension persons, this means that once you find AFB in your apiary that you should follow state regs on AFB(ie. burn the infected colony) and treat the others with tylosin.
    NOT MY RECOMMENDATION.

    Seems to me that if you have taken care of the infected colony then you shouldn't automatically treat the others.

    I also understand that tylosin doesn't "break down" as fast as terramycin, so if you use it, be careful when and perhaps, to be safe, remove all honey supers.

    Mark
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  3. #23
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    >>only kills Foulbrood in the vegatative state

    I dont believe that is how I understood this product to work. I am going to find some literature on its recommended use.

    We have two or three operations here in Manitoba that is using this product under strict watch of the cheif aprarist, and under the emergencey use act to control rAFB. This product has higher residues than Oxytet. but it is much much easier on bee brood, and is extreamly effective against AFB, rAFB.

    >>AFB in your apiary that you should follow state regs on AFB(ie. burn the infected colony) and treat the others with tylosin.
    NOT MY RECOMMENDATION.


    I agree, burn infected comb. And increased culling of old comb within the operation.

    >>NOT MY RECOMMENDATION.

    So your telling me, that if your operation had an outbreak of rAFB, you wouldnot use all the tools available to your operation to help clean up the outbreak? Culling comb is one thing, but supressing the outbreak is also a very useful tool when trying to replace brood combs.
    It takes time to rotate brood comb. Cant all be dont within a time span of a single season, most beekeepers wouldnt be able to handle the sudden capital expense let alone the production losses.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  4. #24
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    Ian, I look forward to what you find on the effect other than in the vegatative stage. I have done quite a bit of reading on Tylosin and Lyncomycin and may have some aspects confused. Your reccommendations of Comb culling are key and the system we've committed to after reading VanEaton/Goodwins study. We had just that problem when we started, we could not cull a couple thousand combs in a season (either from a labor or cost aspect) and have found it has to be an ongoing process.

    In treatment I usually treat problems as a yard not as a hive. I don't know how though if we find AFB in a hive in April and May we can destroy the infected combs, treat the yard and be confident with a 4 month life the tylosin won't show up in out honey supers? That may (or may not)be Marks point. I would assume fall prophalactic treatement would be worthwhile, especially in the south where brood is present through out most of the year.

    [size="1"][ December 31, 2005, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Joel ][/size]

  5. #25
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    Ian, Over the years I have had, in my own operation, differing percentages of AFB above and below the state average. I find that by burning I have been able to keep my average well below the state average.

    I haven't used TM for quite a few years. Since my bees go to SC, where I have an opportunity to look at each of my frames once and some twice, I have plenty of chances to see the hives that are diseased or have scale. If I find it I burn it.

    So I guess that I generally disagree with your last paragraph. I run between 600 and 800 colonies.

    Joel, I am concerned about the residual Tylosin in the honey. Concerned for other beekeepers and the overall quality of honey on the shelf.

    Mark
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  6. #26
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    May 2002
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    Danbury,Ct. USA
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    >> It is my understanding, having not read the label myself(anybody have one?) <<<

    http://www.elancous.com/products/pdf...uble_label.pdf

    As I said: not for prophylactic use. Not in syrup.

    Dickm

  7. #27
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    Well, I guess I was wrong. Not ,for the cure of but, "for the control of AFB." Thanks for that link dickm.

    Mark
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  8. #28
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    Thanks dickm.
    Quote from label:
    "Residue Warning:Honey Bees:The drug should be fed early in the spring or fall and consumed by the bees before the main honey flow begins, to avoid contamination of production honey.Complete treatments at least 4 weeks prior to main honey flow."
    So there you have your guidelines right from the label.Anyone know if residue levels have been established ?

  9. #29
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    Here's the scoop from the group that did the study: Pettis and friends

    Technical Abstract: Residue levels of the antibiotic tylosin in honey were determined after the antibiotic was applied to honey bee colonies. The antibiotic was applied as a dust (200 mg or 1000 mg in 20 g confectioners sugar) three times, one week apart, and both brood and surplus honey were subsequently sampled and analyzed. Tylosin concentrations declined over time in all samples. In surplus honey from colonies treated with a total of 600 mg, tylosin concentrations declined from an average of 1.31 ppm in honey sampled during the treatment period to 0.16 ppm three weeks after the last treatment. Exposure to tylosin from honey is significantly less than from other agricultural products, based on U.S. per capita consumption and an established tolerance of 0.2 ppm.

    [size="1"][ January 01, 2006, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Joel ][/size]

  10. #30
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    Thanks Joel.I looked for it but wasn't having any luck.Gotta keep on top of these things...

  11. #31
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    Happy to hear you are able to manage your AFB levels within you operation with culling comb. Culling is probably the most effecient means of controling AFB.

    I know a fellow, from France. Who follows the same logic as you Mark. He only maintained 100 hives or so. But experienced never the less. He maintained culling was all that was needed to contol AFB, and prieched it loud.

    Till he had a large outbreak, and just could not get ahead of the disease and its devestation. The problem was not only was he fighting it in his yards, but neighbours yards were also getting exposed.
    It ended up he lost all his equipment, and had to start from scratch, new comb. 100 hives would require a managable replacesment cost, but in your situation, 800 hives would pritty much floor a fellow. I'm talking complete replacement, the disease just would not go away. >

    It wasnt caused by bad beekeeping by anymanner, just got caught up in a bad situation.

    His stronge advice to me is, " By all means, use all the tools available in combating this distructive disease ".


    For a migratory beekeeper, outside infection should be a big concern.

    [size="1"][ January 01, 2006, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Ian ][/size]
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  12. #32
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    Ian ,thats one of the drawbacks to almond pollination.There can be a lot of robbing going on at times and you KNOW some of those are going to have afb.If you dont protect your bees ,who will?Afb exposure in almond pollination is a reality,not a guess(see recent ABJ articles).

  13. #33
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    The Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) recently set a maximum residue level of tylosin in honey. The application method preached in Alberta is 3 dustings in the fall 1 week apart.Apply 1 -2 tablespoons each application, depending on the strength of the hive. The mix is 100 grams (about 4 oz.)of Tylan to 10 kg ( about 22 pounds) of icing sugar (100:1 ratio). Used this way there is no residue in honey the next season. It is also strongly advised not to mix with syrup as this will create residue issues. It is also advised not to extract brood honey as this may have tylan residue.

    Used this way AFB is no longer an issue. However bees in Alberta have a much shorter active season than those that are used for almond pollination. I don't know if the Alberta recommendations would work in California.

    Jean-Marc

  14. #34
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    Ian, By all means use all of the means necessary. Integrated Pest and/or Disease Managment needs to include Managment Techniques, Medicinal Treatments and Genetics (hygenic behavior). Some will leave out the medicine and that's okay. Dilligent comb culling will help keep the stuff at bay.

    Mark
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  15. #35
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    {His stronge advice to me is, " By all means, use all the tools available in combating this distructive disease ".}
    (this story is a repeat for new folks)

    An associate and I became aware of a 100+hive opertion in our county (1999 or so) that was badly infected do to neglect by the owner. Because we knew the owner was not taking care of his bees we offered, when he was having problems, to go through the operation (to protect us and other local beeks). I was flabbergasted. In April 80% of the hives were empty and robbed out, rotten with foulbrood. He had several nucs from the season before that had never been hived and all we could do was tell him to burn it all. He did not have bees the next year. This cycle started in 1997 when he bought out an elderly beekeeper who claimed he couldn't see any more and thought his queens were failing. The newbie Beek contacted me to look at the equipment and you guessed it, rotten with foulbrood. Despite my reccommending he not use the equipement I have to assume some of it was, thus the initial innoculation.

    Since that time inspection literally burned the local beekeepers club out of existance (which unfortunately had to be done), we've cleaned up 2 other yards with newbies who want to do the right thing and can only guess how many wild hives are infected.

    I heard this person bought nucs again this year and started over (40 or so) and here we go again.

    You never know who is nearby and what they are or are not doing. Those promoting the non-use of chemotheraputic agents are those who have never encoutered a serious problem. As Ian indicates it's not just about what is in your hives.

  16. #36
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    IPM doesn't preclude the use of antibiotics. It just uses them as part of an integrative approach rather than using them as a substitute for good management and hygiene practices. Just because a beekeeper with foulbrood is using tetracyclines, doesn't mean he or she can't also be sanitizing equipment, using hygienic stock and culling combs. IMO a good IPM strategy incorperates many preventative practices with WELL TIMED, effective treatments.

  17. #37
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    >IPM doesn't preclude the use of antibiotics

    IPM has taken on an entirely different meaning to some from it's original concept hasn't it?

  18. #38
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    Forgive me, but my definition of "pest" is rather loose and not limited to multicellular organisms. IPM, as it was originally formulated applied only to crop plants, but the principles are sound, and have been used in diverse fields under different names (food safety/HACCP, epidemiology/public health, veterinary medicine/herd health, auto manufacture/TQM, antibiotic usage). Basically, I use the term to mean an analysis of risk, identification of possible intervention points and the use of probability based prevention strategies. Treatment is economically costly and must be reserved for those cases where the outcome is predictable. I realize that this is not precisely the same as minimizing field pesticide application, but the underlying concept remains unchanged.

  19. #39
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    jean-marc, at 3 dustings how many hive will your 22 pound mix treat???? And why 3 dustings?????
    SUKIE

  20. #40
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    SUKIE,

    The mix ratio of tylan is different that that of oxytet. So always read you lable before applying. Also be sure to get complete understanding of the product from your seller,

    It works in three dustings much exactly the same as Oxytet. does.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

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