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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,379

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    >I assume you prefer the OA vapor to thymol FGMO treatments?

    I've never liked the smell of thymol and I don't think I want it in my honey. I have used FGMO fog on a regular basis while regressing with good luck. But it takes a treatment every week or two all through the season. The OA is a one time treatment in the fall after brood rearing stops. For my outyard that seemed more practical. The OA will kill virtually all the mites in one shot. The FGMO kills a few all along the way. You can't get rid of all the mites with just one (or even 10) of the FGMO fog treatments.

    >The guys I have spoken with about OA problems suggested that it was the open brood that was at risk, have you seen any problems there?

    Yes. I see a lot of chaulkbrood right after treating with brood in the hive. I try not to do that.

    >I am actually debating treating at all this year.

    If you don't have a problem I wouldn't. If I treat at all it will probably just be the large cell hives I've recently aquired.

    >So far, for the last 5 years, I have been able to survive with only fall FGMO treatments

    That surprises me. I've found FGMO seems to require constant treatments from spring until fall.

    > and propagating from the survivors, but it is always nerve wracking when you see mites this time of year.

    You always see mites this time of year. The question is how many?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
    Posts
    1,162

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    Michael, Mites are indeed more abundant this time of year, however some families have much more than others, and other colonies have almost no detectable mite loads. It seems obvious which colonies have better resistance traits and will remain in the breeding program. Darwin would be proud, natural selection in action, as long as the weaker lines are eliminated (the mites will help here, if you let them). As to the small cell vs. large cell issue, are you actually suggesting that my resistant bees would be more resistant on small cell? Resistance is in the genetics, beyond that we get into the whole contentious nature vs. nurture debate. Suppressed mite reproduction (SMR) is best achieved at the genetic level, and will occur regardless of small cell or not. It is my understanding that the traits that most affect mite resistance/tolerance occur at the genomic level, so perhaps there may be some lines of bees who happen to prefer smaller cells with great resistance traits, and lines bees where the converse is true. I know you strongly advocate small cell, so is it the cell size or the genotype that is the essential ingredient here? I will go out on a limb and suggest that you can breed for resistance on any cell size that the bees are genetically hard wired to draw out. A wise bee guru once told me “the way to success with bees is to help the bees to do what they want to do, not to force them to do what you want them to do.” This approach seems to say that we should use the cell size your bees have a natural genetic inclination to build. I am new to this whole small cell debate so I am sure that there is much that I have to learn.
    The reason that I am able to get by with seasonal fogging is that fogging is not the first line of defense against mites; it is the good queens grafted from the survivor stock. I would consider no treatments at all if I had more control over breeding of these queens. As it is now, the degree of resistant/tolerance that any queen inherits is variable due to drone sources and the natural genetic variations that occur with any sexual reproduction. Did someone just say, “Clone the great ones”? My goal is to eventually develop productive workable bees that you do not have to treat for mites at all. I know that cultural practices can play a big role (SC, SBB etc.). However, I feel the most room for improvement in the genetics realm. Equilibrium will eventually be reached in the parasite/host relationship.
    JBJ
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    medesto,indiana,usa
    Posts
    257

    Post

    JBJ.I believe during early experiments some people were way over treating their bees using several oz's of OA with each treatment and had some brood die off.Only use about a tablespoon or so ..just a small amount and it takes care of the V-mite and also from what I heard helps for T-mite too with just a couple simple treatments.The V-mite basicly breathes through its skin and one of its biggest fears is drying out.When the OA vapor or liquid comes in contact with the mite it is absorbed into the internals.Im guessing that the mite then tries to cough or spit the OA out and ends up messing up its very tiny feeding tube.It probably also affects it reproductive organs and other organs in its body as well.I feel small cell,limited treatments like with OA and grease patties or FGMO and breeding are the keys.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    san antonio.texas USA
    Posts
    488

    Post

    Franc wrote: "I heard helps for T-mite too with just a couple simple treatments." I have heard this also. Has this been confirmed? Has anyone seen any studies on this?

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,379

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    >I heard helps for T-mite too with just a couple simple treatments.

    I've also heard the vapor will and the trickling won't but I have not been able to find study to support that.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Northren MN
    Posts
    57

    Post

    I found the best way to get rid of the mites is to use screens bottoms so they fall thru. and to put soft brissles on the entrances. Tested my thearoy on 4 hives. found alot less mites this way.Brissles tore wings and bees plugged screens with wax. The best way to solve the mite problem I found is to try and control them to a min. Now they are ressistant to all treated except acid. The way I see it is if you dont want mites dont send them to do almonds and keep them 20 miles from all kindes of bees.It is not possible to wipe them out totally and once u do.They come back 10 times fold.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grass Valley, CA
    Posts
    250

    Post

    Just saw this thread, what type of bristles are you using? and how are you applying them? That's an excellent idea, especially with powdered sugar. I was able to easily brush off mites with a light touch off a bee that I coated with powdered sugar. Janet

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    College Station, Texas
    Posts
    6,973

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    axtmann sezs:
    The last 4 years I never lost a queen because of the OA evaporation. Treat your bees as often as necessary as long as there is no frost.

    tecumseh inquires:
    so exactly what is the temperature specification for using vaporized OA? some folks seem to suggest when the bees can fly and other when the bees are not? is there any specific information that would suggest the proper technique?

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,781

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    I am getting very interested in this method, the more I hear about it. And now, our CHC have done the work to provide us with ability to use in here in Canada, I am planning to use this next spring. Apistan is useless, and I have used checkmite this fall to clean up my high mite counts. And I hope not to use it again. I believe tolerant bees is the answer, and even with the amazing results, I cant afford to have my hives crash while I wait for "the bee".

    A few questions on OA that always hangs in the back of my mind.

    Later in the year, the bees tend to be generally found in the bottom of the hives. Now, would a vapour treatment on the bottom board, right benith the cluster kill many bees? As I understand, the acid is dispersed as a superheated vapour. Would that superheated vapour not scald many,many bees?

    Also, if the OA treatments knock down 80% or so of the mites, whats stopping the other 20% from dropping?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Evansville, IN, USA
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    2,837

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    Ian . . .

    >if the OA treatments knock down 80% or so of the mites, whats stopping the other 20% from dropping

    Ask this SAME question except replace "OA" w/ "Apistan" and the answer is always, "that 20% is resistant".

    I think the answer in both cases is the fact that some of the mites are NOT getting a lethal dose.
    If the vapor does not come in contact w/ the mite, that mite get to live. Would adding enough vapor to kill 100% of mite present also kill a large portion of bees? Dont know.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Volga, SD
    Posts
    2,790

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    Some of the mites, especially with a contact method like OA, probably just avoid the treatment. Any mites out riding on workers, or mites in capped brood, in my opinion, would just miss out on the treatment. If the OA is strong enough to penetrate wax and reach mites in capped brood, wouldn't it have the same effects on capped brood that others have noticed on open brood?

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,781

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    >>Ask this SAME question except replace "OA" w/ "Apistan" and the answer is always, "that 20% is resistant".


    Thanks for the response DaveW, I appreciate your response, and it has got me thinking. but resistance cant be the case, for they claim there is no reistance to this application. As with formic. Which is why I am asking.
    Apistan never had 80% knockdown, it was 99.5% effective, or so. That .5% took over, I guess. 20% resistance would leave the product uneffective after a matter of treatments.


    Of all the studies I have read about this treatment, I never see how it effects the bees themselves. Does it shorten their lifespan, kill some during treatment?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  13. #53
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    Aug 2002
    Location
    Evansville, IN, USA
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    >they claim there is no reistance to this application . . .

    I too have heard the claim. I have a problem understanding how bees can become resistant to a "bad" chemical but not resistant to a "good" chemical.

    Isnt an "80% effective" treatment "almost worthless"?

  14. #54
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,598

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    DaveW

    my understanding is that it's the difference in how the chemicals work
    the so called "hard" chemicals work by toxicity
    some mites show less suseptibility to this toxicity and can pass this trait to offspring
    the organic acids work by physically damaging the mite's
    The analogy I've heard is that developing resistance to an organic acid is like developing resistance to being hit by a hammer
    if you hit enough mites with a hammer you might find one that lives
    it might pass that trait on to offspring
    but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen [img]smile.gif[/img]

    I have no scientific research to back this up, it may just be an internet rumor

    Dave

    [size="1"][ December 15, 2005, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ][/size]

  15. #55
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    Aug 2002
    Location
    Evansville, IN, USA
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    drobbins . . .

    The hammer part I understand [img]smile.gif[/img] .

    Somehow I cant see OA "smashing" anything. Maybe it causes the mites to "dry up", stop breathing, or whatever. But, why doesn the mite "genes" stop the OA from killing too?

  16. #56
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,598

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    well, here comes another internet rumor
    my understanding is that the OA actually damages the mites mouth parts and prevents it from feeding
    it's just not caustic enough to harm the bees
    apparently it can harm open brood
    I'm not sure where I read that
    I'll try to find it

    Dave

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Evansville, IN, USA
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    The mite cannot protect its mouth parts but somehow it can stop a chemical from attacting its nervious system? [img]smile.gif[/img]

  18. #58
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina
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    3,598

    Post

    umm,
    exactly
    does that sound hard to believe?
    acid attacks everything it comes in contact with
    organic, inorganic it doesn't matter
    there's no possibility of genetic resistance to it
    it's like a hammer, it does physical damage (if you don't believe it you should look at my thumbnail )
    the problem comes in getting the dose right so you damage the mite but keep damage to the bees to acceptable levels

    Dave

    [size="1"][ December 15, 2005, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ][/size]

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany
    Posts
    829

    Post

    @Jon Kieckhefer

    …….If the OA is strong enough to penetrate wax and reach mites in capped brood, wouldn't it have the same effects on capped brood that others have noticed on open brood?….

    Jon you probably mix something up, only formic acid penetrates wax and closed cells.

    OA kill mites outside closed cells. If there is brood you have to treat several times. During summer is not much moisture in the hives and a treatment works approx 10 to 15 days. This time of the year is more moisture and OA (if evaporated) takes contact with the condensation. One treatment works up to 40 days.

    Formic acid works only with the right temperatures. This treatment is very danger to bees, queen and brood.
    To high temperatures formic kills everything, to low temperatures your mites smiling.

    OA is the easiest treatment around the year as long as temperature above freezing. A good thing… there is no harm to bees, queen or brood. Using the liquid OA is a different story.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Posts
    1,649

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    Not too long ago, oxalic acid was thought by some to work as a systemic and not as contact poison. Has it now been determined that is does not act as a systemic but rather acts as a contact poison? When bees are dosed with it in sugar syrup they do ingest it. When it's done through vaporization, they do breath the fumes. Either way it ends up inside the bees.

    [size="1"][ December 15, 2005, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ][/size]

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