Oxalic Acid Downside??

[Sundance]

As a newbie I have been looking at all forms of treatments.

I use small cell but looking at a back up, emergency treatment.

Oxalic Acid seems almost too good to be true.
*Low Cost
*Readily Available
*Easy to administer
*High knock down rate.

What is the down side to this???

[Joseph Clemens]

Here's a start:
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6044.htm

[Hillside]

One downside may be that it isn't exactly legal to use, at least in the US.

Now to be self incriminating, I'll have to admit that I used it last year as a vapor and had very good results wintering my bees. The "crack pipe" method took a fair amount of time per hive, but I expect with some experience I could speed things up. If you try this method, be really careful about breathing any of the fumes. I know it's been discussed here before, but even a slight wiff gives you that gotta-constantly-clear-my-throat feeling.

I would like to try the drizzle method. It sounds so much simpler and it has a great deal of positive history in parts of Europe.

[Sundance]

If I do use it I would only consider doing it with the JB200.

Altough the MSDS is nasty sounding, all acids are in pure form. Like tartaric acid (grapes), citric acid, etc.

Acetic acids' (pickles and such) MSDS is even nastier than oxalic and we eat, drink, and clean with it regularly.

http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSAcetic.html

Any headway on getting it approved for mite control??

[drobbins]

from what I've read, I wouldn't hold my breath (except when I'm sublimating it)
nobody's gonna make any $ off of it

Dave

[Sundance]

Dave.... Good point...... unfortunatly.

[Joseph Clemens]

Some thoughts from a guy who started learning about organic gardening when he was 8 years old:
* * * * * * * * *
Even though trace amounts of oxalic acid can by found in many natural systems, those systems don't happen to experience oxalic acid in the manner or quantities described as treatment of honeybees for mite infestations.

I don't even feed my bees with anything other than what they'd find in nature for themselves. I can't prevent them from scavenging what they would find around "civilization", but at least I don't need to provide it myself.

If I'm going to provide products from my hives to friends/family/customers I want to be able to say that I have done absolutely nothing intentional to cause adulturation of those products, rather everything reasonable to reduce the chance of any contamination.

[MichaelW]

The main drawback from my reading about it would be breathing vapors. The trickle method avoids some of that and has the most research, that I could find, that tells you how to use it and how well it works. Those research papers are very clear. Use scholar.google.com

I'll probably try the trickle method at some point. I won't sublimate it, but thats me.

[Michael Bush]

Anything that kills the mites is going to stress the bees. I think that goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway. That said, yes, it has all those advantages over all the other treatments.

I think the "idiot" factor will have an effect. No one will want to market the vaporizer in the US because some bozo will fail to stand downwind, fail to heed the first wiff and getout of the fumes and deep inhale the fumes go into static asthmaticus, die and the family will sue the manufacturer. No one will bother to pay the fees to get it approved when you can buy it for $6 at the paint store and no one will want the liability issues.

It's not like it's hard to stay out of the fumes. Leave your smoker lit so you can make sure you know which way the wind is blowing and you always stand upwind.

[drobbins]

here's a good link to the method

http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/resear...xalic-0-nf.htm

Joseph, make no mistake, I want very much to not use any treatment.
But the class I took and the books I've read scare the heck out of me about the mites.
They tell me to use apistan, I'm not gonna do that
they tell me to re-queen every year, I'm not gonna do that
they tell me to use foundation to make the bee's build comb like I want them to in there brood nest, I'm not gonna do that.
But they sufficiently scared me about the mites to make me think I'd better think about what I am gonna do if I have a problem or else I ain't gonna have no bee's.
I like my bee's, I ain't just gonna let em die without trying to help em. I'm trying to get em on SC and I hope that is sufficient to do the job, but from what I read here I may need to help a little to get em from here to there. I think my first line of defense would be powdered sugar. I'd follow that with either sucrocide or OA, probably depending on the time of year.
Fortunately, at this point, I've never seen a mite. Hopefully I'll get to a point where I don't need chems before I need em, but the time to develop a plan is not after you have a problem.
Right now I don't have a problem and I'm not gonna do anything.

You should be proud of the fact you manage to keep bee's without any kind of treatment. I wish you continuing success. In the last day or 2 you posted a longer description of how you run your bee's, I appreciate it, it's very helpful to those of use trying to figure out how to make this work

Dave

[Sundance]

I second Daves thoughtful response.

Using any other treatment other than small cell, FGMO w/thymol (more for tracheal mites), will be done as a last resort only. Oxalic acid seems to be that next step if needed.

Using the JB200 puts you well away from harms way. And as Micheal said, it is not hard to figure which way the wind is blowing. Especially here in ND and my guess is Kansas is much the same on the wind front.

My apple orchard is being run the same way. Soft treatments are the first line, always. But I will not lose my trees or my bees when it comes down to it.

Continued success Joeseph!

[drobbins]

Bruce,

I've got a jug of the crystals and I intend to experiment a little
I'm gonna see if I can find a 12 volt heating element cheap somewhere and build an evaporator.
If you don't "need" one yet, don't rush out and buy it, I suspect you could fabricate such a thing cheaply

Dave

[MichaelW]

The wind blows in all directions here. Sometimes the campfire smoke will chase you all night. If I sublimated here I would use a respirator for sure. I doubt if its any worse than the wood stain I used a couple of weeks ago. A CHEMICAL not dust respirator should do the trick if you don't want to brath the fumes and don't want to count on the wind.

[Sundance]

As a former auto body guy, I don't handle much of anything without a respirator. I have many, including an air supplied system.

Dave,,, Keep me posted on your Dr Wizard manuvers. I'll look for a flash and mushroom cloud to the southeast

[Joseph Clemens]

Dave,
Here is an additional item about how I have been managing my "feral survivor" bees:
--> For the past 8+ years I have left queen management almost entirely up to the bees. I still manage my “feral survivor” apiary this same way. They were initially "feral survivor's" living on exposed combs, sheltered only from above, being suspended beneath a mobile home nearby my 1st apiary location. All my colonies, until this season were walk-away splits derived from this initial colony (the queenless portions were each left alone to raise their own replacement queens). Each season approximately 1/3 of my colonies swarm, of those that do they usually throw more than one each. Over these past 8 years, 3 hives have wound up queenless after their swarming efforts and I have intervened to provide them with a frame of young brood to raise themselves an emergency replacement queen. Using this lackadaisical queen management style keeps me wondering about only one thing most of all, (how old are my queens). I'm somewhat certain my bees are fairly well adapted to my area and the conditions here, because without ever receiving any treatments at all, they have remained vigorous and healthy. Brood patterns have remained consistently excellent and I suspect that there is very little inbreeding adversely affecting brood viability.

[Beemaninsa]

I have not seen this posted yet but may have missed it...August ABF bulletin stated that the directors decided to pursue registration of oxalic acid for treatment of varroa mites. The Canadain Honey council has offered to sell the ABF the data they collected for Canadian registration at a reasonable price. Many futher steps will be required before the product will be available for use, but ABF is moving forward on this.
I don't know which method of application they will pursue.
This may be far fetched, but I was wondering if measured doses could be encapsulated in something that would dissipate with heat application. When useing the vapor method, could this help reduce some of the handleing hazards? Any thoughts?

[drobbins]

Joseph,

You're certainly not the only person reporting that "feral survivors" seem to be a big help.
Obviously, the problem is there is no "feral survivor" store
Fortunately, I have found a feral colony in the top of a huge oak outside a friends house.
Collecting the colony is just not gonna happen, no way, no how.
To high, can't cut tree etc
But he say's he's seen em throw many swarms and they've been there a long time so you can bet I'll have some swarm traps around his place in the spring.

Thanks for the additional info
Dave

[Sundance]

Beesmania....... That is encouraging!! It is what is needed to get it done.

How does one join the ABF?? I would like to support them.

I am sure once "legalized" companies will formulate many application modes to cash in.

[dcross]

Diana Sammataro(sp?) is also working on a trickled oxalic treatment.

[Michael Bush]

>Obviously, the problem is there is no "feral survivor" store

There are others raising feral survivors. I'm sure there are some in your area as well. I have some from here available.

>I'll have some swarm traps around his place in the spring.

That's a plan. Put them a ways away though. Bees swarming aren't looking right next door.