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old combs

15K views 57 replies 16 participants last post by  puddle9 
#1 ·
I recently got some old hives and supers which have not been used for 3-4 yrs.Many of the supers had 50% or more of there space filled with good looking comb. Should I scrape this off and start again or do my new bees get a headstart?
 
#27 ·
dont seem to have the expertese in organic beekeeping as you do, maybe we could all attend a sminar in your beeyard??

reply:

better yet you should visit Lusby Apiaries in AZ. There you can see 700 colonies of 100% dope free colonies going into there seventh year on 4.9mm top clearance cell size.

oh formic acid is a natural occuring chemical, so im organic too...

Yes. But not at the level that you are using it. Formic burns the exoskeleton of your bees. Don't think so, handle it with bare hands for 50 colonies. This can't possible maintain the healthiest of bees.

Clay
 
#28 ·
ok dee ill refrain from your style of mane calling, you are trying to market your solution to the mite problem in the u.s. and anyone who disagrees with you are ignorant loudmouths, i hope all beginning beekeeprs who read this will assume that also, you have proven beyond any doubt i have had that you are a master beekeeper and how can i purchase a bottle of your organic formula to protect my bees?? its really funny the chemicals used in mite supression are usda approved is yours??

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 21, 2001).]
 
#29 ·
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clayton:
> oh formic acid is a natural occuring chemical, so im organic too...

Yes. But not at the level that you are using it. Formic burns the exoskeleton of your bees. Don't think so, handle it with bare hands for 50 colonies. This can't possible maintain the healthiest of bees.

Clay

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

clay, handle the liguid form of formic acid and yes you will be burnt, bees are not handling the liquid form only the vapors...obviously, you would not handle formic acid with your bare hands, what are you trying to prove here clay that your right and im wrong if so your better sharpen your skills a bit

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 21, 2001).]
 
#30 ·
well dee must be ive missed something all the classes i have taken at cornell and not once has there a suggestion that your methods work?????? i have a number you can contact nick or one of his assistants at cornell if youd like,

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 21, 2001).]
 
#31 ·
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rainesridgefarm:
What bee problems? You just do not get it!! Build their immune system and all the problems go away. Kelp tea, pepperment oils, Organic soy flour. I am sure you will want the last word. So give it your best shot. But please work on your spelling. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>their immune system? to handle mites come on from reading you question obviously you are a beginner, or you wouldnt ask such silly questions, and yes im trying to work on my spelling i do this as soon as im done writing replys to foolish question
 
G
#32 ·
ATTENTION!

When everyone joined this Bulletin Board, you agreed to it's rules, of which there is basically one: Be civil.

Discussions are starting to become uncivil. If you can't say it politely, don't say it. Share your opinions and agree to disagree. If cutting remarks enter in, the posts will now get deleted.

Please continue.

Administrator
 
#33 ·
Hi Joelz,

Reference your reply of 21Dec01, 02:48,

ok dee ill refrain from your style of mane calling, you are trying to market your solution to the mite problem in the u.s. and anyone who disagrees with you are ignorant loudmouths, i hope all beginning beekeeprs who read this will assume that also,

Reply:

First of all, I am not trying to market my solution in the USA. I am trying to market it worldwide. Herein is the difference.

Anyone who disagrees with me is not an ignorant loudmouth, But it will be a conversaton with exact references keeping to subject matter and not comparing apples to oranges concepts. This means keeping to a natural system of beekeeping concerning foundations and bee breeding, and yes there are vast differences in behaviour between the two in the field.

You further wrote:
you have proven beyond any doubt i have had that you are a master beekeeper and how can i purchase a bottle of your organic formula to protect my bees??

Reply:
There is no organic formula for bees Joelz. You especially, if a masterbeekeeper should already know that. Field work is hard and labor intensive and short fix gimmicky just does not solve problems. It's like a bandage on an open wound, hoping it heals, when sometimes it doesn't.

The biological formula you talk about requires proper diet of honey and pollen for bees. It requires regression to natural workerbrood cell sizing, to that in effect prior to sizing upwards in search of better bees with longer tongues for larger honey crops. It also requires a change in the way bee breeding is looked at, especially getting away from inbreeding that no animal on earth naturally does long and survives on an evolutionary trail forward.

You further replied:
its really funny the chemicals used in mite supression are usda approved is yours??
[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 21, 2001).]

Reply:
Actually, we went to the USDA Western region in the mid 1980s, and originally were under contract with the USDA/ARS for doing much of what we have done.In the beginning we worked with the Tucson Bee Lab, but then the project stopped because no one was assigned there that could do the work required and so we continued on our own. Yes it is funny chemicals are approved, but then you must have approval to apply dopes of various kinds. As for the biological, you must ask for it under law to be allowed to do it. Then under federal law it must be given to you upon request. Then they don't have to show you how to do it. Just make the information available. The ketch is no one is told they are to ask for the biological.
Being published with Apiacta with the world beekeeping federation makes then, this material available to those asking for it. Since most don't it isn't given, nor forced.
As most want chemicals, that is taught.

But that doesn't make biological wrong.It is something that is hard to teach in class for each region is slightly different, though basically the same. Also, it involves going back to old style beekeeping with unlimited broodnests. This is a style that used to be taught by the USDA back in the 1970s. Today, other methods unfortunately are taught. Perhaps you should bring this up and maybe get the masterbeekeepers course updated or changed to accomodate the biological side and old style beekeeping with unlimited broodnests. Evidently from what you say the course is slighted towards the petro chemical solution side. This I think is wrong, for it teaches fast quick and a road to hell and slow death for beehives, that in the long run, must make the conversion back to natural parameters to survive.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby
 
#34 ·
Hi Joelz

On 21Dec01, 0257pm you wrote:

well dee must be ive missed something all the classes i have taken at cornell and not once has there a suggestion that your methods work?????? i have a number you can contact nick or one of his assistants at cornell if youd like,
[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 21, 2001).]

Reply:
I have Nicsolas' phone number in my file already, However, perhaps you should talk with him about including some of the small cell size methodology in the masterbeekeeping course to bring it up to date.

In the mean time, since you seem to be there, you are welcome to come here to learn about it first hand in the field. Then perhaps you could teach that part to others.

Right now we are about 700 colonies, but are planning expansion this year to 900-1,000 colonies.

Stuff you could learn here would be, basic biological bee breeding, regression of enlarged honeybees, foundation making, wax reclamation, colony work up on a natural system for unlimited broodnest management for crops of honey, pollen and propolis.

Don't worry, we won't charge you for hands on learning, but you will have to house and feed yourself and supply transportation. Many come now to learn from around the USA and overseas. The information is free.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby
 
#35 ·
Barry,

I am quite sure that all of us can understand your last remarks. It is obvious that Joelz is under stress and indeed presents himself badly and by referencing Cornell University, puts the school in a very bad light.

Beekeepers reading this bulletin board should not judge Cornell by his remarks and the administrators do need to be made aware of actions such as these and I am sure that they will.

It is indeed hard for those losing bees due to various dopes used, many times worse then the parasitic mites themselves.

As you all know, coumaphos is now no longer working in many areas. This many of us have known for 3 years or more now. But now finally it is official, by a government officials willing to stick their necks out.

There is very little control now to follow and the scene will just have to play out.Besides coumaphos contamination of combs that render the wax useless for continued use in a beehive, you also have loss of queen rearing functions which means basically, when you lose the right to requeen with supercedure you lose the natural right to carry on your hives requeening of themselves and the game ends. You cannot buy new nucs and rreplace the bees for the problem remains. Contaminated combs with organophosphates and still no way to requeen.

When will the game end now? Well, when the bee breeders using coumaphos top out and can no longer raise queens.

In the mean time, this is a good example to show you all that many are scared. Also that hearing that doing nothing, but using natural sized combs to solve the problem is frightening to some, beyond belief.

While we cannot accept actions such as displayed here, we can pity those in distress and try to help.

Joelz needs help. Try to understand him, but be firm. Chemicals are no solution. Natural ways are and further, they have been that way since the beginning of time.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby
 
#36 ·
AMEN.

But the upside to all of this is we learned so much about the natural way of doing things. Dee are you going to be doing any group training this spring. I am sure many beekeepers would be interested in coming down and see your operation. Maybe just a two or three day course would be great. If you want to e-mail me that would be great. Also how far would you go to speak to a group of people. What cost would we have to pick up to get you to come to our Association meeting.

Thanks
Phillip
 
#37 ·
My brother's loves his 4x4 Toyota truck and he always post and reads a toyota offroad forum just like we do. One day all of the people on the east coast got together for a weekend and went 4willing. Over 50 people came together and they all had a grate time. Anyway, Phillip's idea is not bad about Dee doing a group training this spring. May be we can all join?

Just a thought,

Andrey.
 
#38 ·
dee please , i am not losing any bees dear and cornell university does not teach a biological mite control because at this time there is no complete biological control, thats fact. what bothers me is your dialog to new bekeepers that in a year or so will face the question as why there be are gone, read any of the last test results as published in the december issue of bee journal there is no complete control for mites, except yours, my hive consitaantly produce double the pennsyvania average of 60lbs.and i understand your reasoning for censoring my replies, finally someone is questioning you.........

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 23, 2001).]
 
#39 ·
see i appriciate your opinion, but please try and refrain from degrading my intelligence, coumaphose was given a emergency use permit by the usda, i am totally unaware of any coumphose resistant mites in the u.s. also how is comb rendered useless in a hive where coumaphose is used?
and as for requeening with supercedure cells, not the best route to requeen with.
nattural ways since the beginning of time? really at the beginning of time we didnt have small hive beetle, varroa and treaceal mites, migartory pollenators criscrossing the counrty, or packaged bees moved across the country,
and as for me being under stress, the only stress i have is your continued point of view to beginner beekeepers that organic beekeeping is the only way of keeping bees.
organic beekeeping may work for a time by very experienced beekeepers, but for a beginner to try and master beekeeping and organics at the same time is a recepi for desaster. i stand behind my opinion as does cornell university beekeeper program, censor and edit this reply if you wish. as you have done in the past with anyone who disagrees with you

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 23, 2001).]
 
G
#40 ·
Joel,

The ONLY one that has been editing your posts is the Administrator of this Bulletin Board. The ONLY thing that has been edited/deleted from your posts has been the excessive quotes of previously posted messages. I have finally changed the settings on the BB so this option is no longer available. I regret having to do this, but excessiving quoting uses up disk space, makes it harder to read through a post, and creates a thread file that takes longer to open due to its size.

Administrator
 
#41 ·
Joelz wrote:

i am not losing any bees dear and cornell university does not teach a biological mite control because at this time there is no complete biological control, thats fact.

Reply:
Yes, I already understand that you are using various dopes to keep your bees from dying. This is understandable from previous posts.

You are mistaken, as there there is a complete biological control for field management for control of parasitic mites and secondary diseases. Fortunately it does not involve petro chemical, it just involved honest field work.

You further wrote:
what bothers me is your dialog to new bekeepers that in a year or so will face the question as why there be are gone, read any of the last test results as published in the december issue of bee journal there is no complete control for mites, except yours,

Reply:
Yes, I understand that even Cornell would like to teach beekeepers how to keep bees without usage of any dopes/crutches for parasitic mite and secondary disease control. Can you relate any, progress that has been made?

Yes, the December issue of ABJ painted a bleak future for continued chemical usage. The pesticide treatmill is hard. This is shown quite adequately here.

You further added:
my hive consitaantly produce double the pennsyvania average of 60lbs.and i understand your reasoning for censoring my replies, finally someone is questioning you.........
[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 23, 2001).]

Reply:
I myself have not edited here, and I am glad you hives are producing double the Penn. standard from what you say. Question: Do you feed artificial feeds? Additionally, do you take honey and then feed syrup, etc for going into winter?

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby
 
#42 ·
Joelz wrote:

see i appriciate your opinion, but please try and refrain from degrading my intelligence, coumaphose was given a emergency use permit by the usda, i am totally unaware of any coumphose resistant mites in the u.s.

Reply:
This was officially announced by government officials for the state of Florida on 30Nov01. Check here with the USDA for scope I would suggest to you.

You further wrote:
also how is comb rendered useless in a hive where coumaphose is used?

Reply:
coumaphos is an organophosphate, actually an old Nazi nerve chemical and impossible to get out of wax combs once used. It is doumented that even usage with the first treatment means that while the strips are in a colony you cannot requeen nor will it naturally requeen itself via supercedure. This should be evident also to you in reading the Dec ABJ articles posted there, besides previous written material months earlier in ABJ.

You also wrote Joelz:
and as for requeening with supercedure cells, not the best route to requeen with.

Reply:
Natural supercedure is the way bees have requeened for thousands of years without man.Why is it not best or do you equate bees to poodles nowadays for keeping, along with other house pets that need continued help?

You further wrote:
nattural ways since the beginning of time? really at the beginning of time we didnt have small hive beetle, varroa and treaceal mites, migartory pollenators criscrossing the counrty, or packaged bees moved across the country,

Reply:
THis is quite true we didn't. And if we don't stop this artificial enlarging of bees to detrimental parameters, we won't have bees. The predators and scavengers will keep coming in until man is willing to make the changes to work within a natural environment.
That could mean no migratory if they don't learn to change their ways back to within reason. Also changes are needed for package bees. But they will all learn or go out of business. Real world beekeeping is hard when only quick fix and artificial measures are taught that have no bearing upon realworld circumstances. Because of what is happening, one would think that institutions of higher learning would rise to meet the challenge! Teaching what works.......

You further wrote:
and as for me being under stress, the only stress i have is your continued point of view to beginner beekeepers that organic beekeeping is the only way of keeping bees.
organic beekeeping may work for a time by very experienced beekeepers, but for a beginner to try and master beekeeping and organics at the same time is a recepi for desaster.

Reply:
Teaching biological beekeeping to beginners is not hard. The principles are not hard. It just takes loving bees and wanting to work with them and take a little longer time in the field. It is the older beekeepers on the pesticide junky treadmill that are hard to teach and get out of dependency habits.

You further wrote:
i stand behind my opinion as does cornell university beekeeper program, censor and edit this reply if you wish. as you have done in the past with anyone who disagrees with you
[This message has been edited by Admin (edited December 23, 2001).]

Reply:
I have not edited your posts on this thread and am quite not afraid of deep thoughts nor administrators. Have been one myself for too long. Unfortunately I am schooled in the old ways of beekeeping and not into bowing down to the petro chemical Gods, nor quick fixes in life that don't work, and I am not afraid of getting my fingernails dirty working bees.

I very much look forward to continued dialogue with you and how Cornell thinks. It should be enlightening for everyone to say the least.

Perhaps we can come to an understanding for learning to help our industry and you at Cornell can upgrade your program then.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby
 
#43 ·
Hi Phillip and Andrey

This is something that will have to be done in the future I can see. I have conducted workshops for years off and on, both at National beekeepers meetings and Regional and various State Asociation meetings.

Right now I and my husband are booked with beekeepers coming in for the next several months to learn how to make 4.9mm foundation processing and wax rendering the old way, with review of the field (2 days here on field)for workup of bees through regression.

But this is probably something that should be done, have a meeting for biological beekeepers set up where all can come and talk and exchange ideas. It doesn't necessarily have to be here, as we have taken our wax dipping pots and embossing rollers to Alabama and Calif in the past for workshops for hands on learning while holding workshops that lasted a few days.

As beekeepers are now springing up all over the USA using 4.9mm foundation, perhaps an event should be planned ahead and centralized.

Right now we are expanding from 700 to 900-1,000 colonies this year to wrap up getting back to normal levels with our bees. Following that we will gain time by not having to retool 8,000 to 9,000 frames each year during the off season months. Perhaps this time could be well spent helping others in workshops once or twice a year for hands on training. After all the foundation and explaination of working up broodnests is the center life of our colonies.

Yes, this is good thought you two. I will work on getting ready for doing it once we are past this coming season. You are right, it's about time we all started doing this.

Someting to plan for

Very best regards,

Dee A. Lusby
 
#44 ·
Joel wrote:
"i am totally unaware of any coumphose resistant mites in the u.s."

ABJ - January 2002
Reduced Chemical Beekeeping 1
by Carl Wenning

"This form of biological evolution is mirrored in beekeeping by the presence of Apistan - resistant (and now some Checkmite - resistant) Varroa and Terramycin - resistant American foulbrood. Using chemicals to treat honey bee pests ultimately only forces evolution's hand, and both bees and beekeepers turn out to be the losers. The fact of the matter is that the array of chemical treatments beekeepers use today ultimately will fail."
 
#45 ·
Hi folks
Once upon a time there were scientists.
And they proposed that the world was flat and stood on a number or pillary supports. Or they said that anything beyond the atmosphere is occupied by ether ( whatever that was or is.)Of course everybody swore by that until some other one came around and quoted a different hypothesis. And they became the gospel for the time beeing.
Further. I have not read all the posts , but from what I understand there is a vast amount of different scientifically proposed management styles. Which is the correct one ?. And since a host of scientists have researched the same goal and came to all these different conclusions , which one is correct ?
My little obs : Old comb has NOT discolered the honey.Why should honey be always light ? It is merely an immaterial OPINION expressed by some individual and subject to "feelings" or " believes".I could go on and repeat again what was already quoted. How many books were written on the bee subject ? Why ?
I have the notion that Nobody knows it all because it would be already cut and dry within the time span of the written word or the printing press.
Happy 2002
JDF
 
G
#46 ·
It's not clear from the original posting whether this has been used for brood, or if only used in supers above an excluder.

If it has only been used for honey storage, it will darken very little, and it's more likely to be safe from AFB contamination. I'd use it without replacing comb, and as someone else mentioned, save the bees a lot of work. I doubt very much that there's a buildup of pathogens in super comb. If super (extracting) comb doesn't give 20 years of service, a lot of work and expense is wasted. This, of course, would not be true of supers with no excluders or faulty excluders, that let queens run upstairs.

If it has had brood cycles in it, I'd be prone to replace it. At the very least I would look at it carefully for AFB scale. If you find it, burn the comb and frames, and scorch the boxes. Every scale has billions of foulbrood spores.

You can see a photo of scale in the comb at The Pollination Home Page. I don't have the exact reference handy now, but run a search for AFB scale, and the search engine at the bottom of the first page.

Dave Green
The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com
 
#47 ·
Some more current information (Bee Culture - Jan. 2002) for Joel regarding Coumaphos written by the editor of Bee Culture, Kim Fllottum:

"Now, finally, results of several studies released this year show beyond doubt that the presence of either Apistan or Checkmite+ adversely affect queens and drones. Developing queens treated with Coumaphos suffered high mortality rates, acceptance was low, larvae died, physical abnormalities were common, they weighed less, had lower ovary weights . . . and all at exposure rates below the EPA tolerance level of 100 ppm in the beeswax they were living on. Meanwhile, Fluvalinate reduced sperm counts in drones and reduced the size of queens at maturity, according to the reports."

[This message has been edited by Barry (edited January 05, 2002).]
 
#48 ·
WOW! Quite a lot to handle for someone just looking into getting started.
I grew up on a small farm. I moved away, and have a small family of a two-year-old boy, and four year old girl. I live in SE PA, [Collegeville] and the area, in which we now live, while only 15 miles from the farm, has become the victim of the greed of the builders. People have moved into this area, which was once agrarian, and turned it into a place where the mini-vans all compete for parking spaces in the ever-expanding malls. This is certainly not a place where I want my children to grow up.

To wit-I am moving my family back to the farm. We will have our own chickens, and I plan to start back in on the organic farming I did while growing up, and up to when I went to college.

I am very interested in getting started in beekeeping, and have just now started in getting information together. I look forward to the information presented here, and appreciate that all views are welcome. Seems that human nature is the same everywhere. What we need is less human, and more nature...JK

------------------
Jonathan Kriebel
Das Sauen Öhr Farm
Green Lane, PA
jbkriebel@speakeasy.net
 
#49 ·
Hi,

I am very interested in getting started in beekeeping, and have just now started in getting information together. I look forward to the information presented here, and appreciate that all views are welcome. Seems that human nature is the same everywhere. What we need is less human, and more nature...JK

reply:

Good luck in beekeeping. When do you plan to start? If you have questions just ask. As there are many good beekeepers here to get advise from.

Clay
 
#50 ·
Hi Johnathan,

The best few quid (UK pounds) I ever spent was on a beginners course with my local beekeepers club. I got lots of information and contacts for people to pester with my problems. I joined the club. We have visits to each others' apiaries (bee yards)to see how they do it.

Very recommended. Your head will be buzzing with questions, and there's no better place to get answers.

------------------
Lu
 
#51 ·
To Clayton:

I plan to start this year. However, given my propensity for researching and information gathering, that might be a bit optomistic <<G>>. There are two beekeepers in the area that I know of, and I plan to start with asking them for help and information. Hopefully they can tell me what the local clubs are in the area. Looks like I found the right place. BTW, I had a restoration business (17th Century homes), and a full shop, so I will have no trouble with the sawdust end of it. I already have the plans downloaded, but need more information before I cut any wood...JK

------------------
Jonathan Kriebel
Das Sauen Öhr Farm
Green Lane, PA
jbkriebel@speakeasy.net
 
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