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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,889

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    >you mean never ever?

    I mean never ever. It is like AFB for wax moths. It is a spore forming bacteria. The spores last virtually forever. If a wax moth eats some then more spores are formed which also last virtually forever.

    >like 5yrs from now?

    Like 50 years from now.

    >Is this bacterial edible for humans?

    Yes. Bt is approved as safe for humans and is sold in the garden stores for controling cabbage worms and mosquito larvae. The particular strain in B401 was approved and certified for use in honey bee combs as being safe for bees and humans.

    >If "never ever" then it would be very persistent in the comb.

    Yes. VERY persistent. Just like AFB is for bees. A spore forming bacteria that kills wax moths. How cool is that!
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    1,933

    Post

    awsome, I'll give it a try

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,525

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    Now if we can get one that kills mites..

    Hawk
    KC0YXI

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,889

    Post

    >Now if we can get one that kills mites..

    That would be awesome indeed.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,401

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    > I mean never ever...
    > The spores last virtually forever. If a wax
    > moth eats some then more spores are formed
    > which also last virtually forever.

    Shimanuki and Vanderburg's 1990 twin studies:

    "Viability of Bacillus thuringiensis...",
    Journal of Economic Entomology 83:760-765

    and

    "Application Methods for [Bt]..."
    Journal of Economic Entomology 83:766-771

    Offered a much more cautious view.

    They found that "moderate" damage was the result
    of storing combs properly treated with Bt for
    from 2 to 4 months at 30 C (86F).

    At temps above 30 C, the spores rapidly lost
    viability, so the spores are simply not going to
    survive most summers, and may not survive
    even a Southern fall season without some lower
    temperature storage.

    At temps below 30 C, you got good control, but
    not after a "summer" where the supers were
    exposed to temps above 30 C.

    So, retreatment is a very good idea at least
    every year prior to storage, but if you have a
    cool basement or root cellar, it can work very well.

    They tried to produce a more heat-tolerant strain
    of Bt, and while they do exist for other types
    of Bt, my understanding is that the types of Bt
    that will kill greater and lesser wax moths still
    don't survive high temps.

    Maybe I'm just out-of-date on this, but a
    heat-tolerant wax-moth killer would be big
    news, not something I could avoid hearing.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,889

    Post

    All of them I ever treated have never had wax moth problems again. But it does reproduce in the larvae and form more spores.

    I've heard of others with the same experience.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Batesburg-Leesville, South Carolina
    Posts
    1,443

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    wait a minute folks - i am a total newbie to this stuff, and not a very smart man to begin with, but think about it - if certan has a residute that lingers in the comb for 50 years, do I want my friends and neighbors eating honey from that comb? sounds like the way mercury behaves to me.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Totnes, Devon, England
    Posts
    1,019

    Post

    PDB is now recognized as a carcinogen and is EXTREMELY toxic to aquatic life. No responsible beekeeper should still be using it, IMO.
    The Barefoot Beekeeper http://www.biobees.com

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,525

    Post

    first I've heard about that. And I'm still using it. What aquatic life. In the Rocky Mountains? Huh??

    Hawk
    KC0YXI

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    TAVARES FLA US
    Posts
    193

    Post

    Hi everyone, Man I can not believe all the different opinions on this subject. I tend to agree with BjornBee on a previous subject, We should all check a little more into the subject before answering. The new beekeepers does not know which way to go. I know alot of us say what has worked for us but that dont mean others are in the same weather conditions or surroundings. I would hate to know I was the cause for someone to lose there hives. I know there are some professionail people on this forum, but I think we should all be careful. Hope I did not make anyone mad. Take care JJ

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    TAVARES FLA US
    Posts
    193

    Post

    Hi yall, I also think if you are using a product that has been tested and approved, we should all be going by how the manufacture tells us how to use the product and how much. Take care JJ

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Mount Olive, NC
    Posts
    53

    Post

    In response to your concerns over residues, Bacillus thuringiensis or B.t. is not a pesticide. It is a bacteria that produces gastroenteritis (stomach infection) in an insect particularly those in the order Lepidoptera (caterpillar - moth type of insect). This disease has no effect on humans. In fact, the B.t. toxin has been genetically transferred into many commercial crops and humans consume the crops without harm. The sweet corn that I am eating this week is a genetically modified strain that has the B.t. toxin present. Not a single worm was found in any ear.

    In terms of persistence, several types of bacterial form endospores which are resistant to heat and drying. Boiling will not kill these endospores and why boiling does not sterilise. These endospores persist for years. Who knows how long. Tetanus is a commonly known endospore former. It is known to last for 60+ years in the soil. Another endospore former is American Foulbrood. This is why it is persistant in the hive and you must destroy or sterilise the hive.

    Spores on the other hand are not persistant. Whatever stimulus causes the endospore to germinate then produces a nonpersistant stage.

    It seems reasonable to try B.t. on frames. Michael Bush's anecdotal reports are good. James Fisher quotes a study reporting a lower efficacy. I have not read the study myself. I would expect that the bees would incorporate some of the endospores into the wax giving them protection. These endospores would be released from the wax by the waxmoth larvae. This could be quite a different test than just spraying B.t. on the frame and placing in storage.

    In summary:
    1. it is not dangerous and doesn't harm humans
    2. it might work in your situation
    3. in theory it may be persistant in the comb
    4. it's likely better than a pesticide or PDB residues.
    5. B.t.'s are accepted by most "organic" groups as a way to control insect pests.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    1,933

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    I'm a cautious person, when trying BT, I planned on watching my frames closely for moths and if I didn't reatreat I would watch more carefully. I also still have some PDB and would use it on about half the frames just in case. If I see that it works well in my environment/circumstances I'll switch over. As a hobbiest, this type of experimenting is easy.

    BT has been used for years with food. It is listed as an organic controll in my 1976 copy of Organic Plant Protection. I would much rather risk eating a well studied bacteria then a manufactured chemical.

    with begginer bee keepers, the main thing is to convince them that they really do have to do something to keep the wax moths off stored comb, and how valuable that drawn comb is. It took me a few year to figure that one out myself!

    With PDB's widespread use in men's urinals, its likely to be one of those chemicals there begging to find in trace amounts in our drinking water. Considering its carcinogenic and dangerous for aquatic life, looks like we could do without the pungent smell in our bathrooms. Its unnecessary use should be avoided in the bathroom and in beekeeping if found to be unnecessary.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    North Alabama, SW Kentucky
    Posts
    1,914

    Post

    Bump
    WayaCoyote

  15. #35
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Whitefield, Maine USA
    Posts
    6,624

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    I had 20+ shallows with drawn brood comb I pulled off the hives last fall. A couple were full of honey and pollen and those went in my freezer, the rest I stacked up in the barn with bottoms and lids to keep mice and moths out and they faired well. I checked them the other day and there's no wax moth damage, I guess the cold got them. The combs I don't cull will be going back on the hives before long.

    I bought a bottle of Certan this spring primarily for use on old combs I'm using in swarm traps, but I haven't used any yet. I gather wax moths aren't a problem around here until later in the season anyways.
    Dulcius ex asperis

  16. #36
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    1,933

    Post

    Wow, that would never work here.

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